Speaker 1: 0:00

It says honest opinions please. Well, that's us. We're good to go. Juvenile court has been involved in this transition of visitation for my son and his father. Due to dad's behaviors in the past, they have advanced to unsupervised day visits. His father is now asking for overnight visits. As nervous as this makes me, my biggest issue is that his dad is currently living in the room of his adult daughter's apartment In the living room.

Speaker 1: 0:28

He doesn't even have a room. Oh, I didn't read that Living in the living room. I don't feel that this is a stable enough environment for overnight visits, mostly because dad isn't technically allowed to live there. Am I wrong for this?

Speaker 2: 0:42

Why is he technically not allowed to live there? Am I wrong?

Speaker 1: 0:44

for this? Why is he technically not allowed to live there? She's saying that he won't qualify for a lease and maybe he's not supposed to be in there if he doesn't, if he's not on the lease. My thought is there are lots of reasons that you might be concerned about this gentleman having overnight visits. Not being on the lease in his daughter's apartment is not the one that I would be primarily concerned about the least of the worries. The least of the worries, that's all she did there.

Speaker 1: 1:08

So so what do you I mean now? Clearly, she says she's nervous about other parts of this as well. Right, she says he's asking for overnight visits. As nervous as this makes me so, baseline nervousness which, if he has a lot of felony convictions or whatever, then sure I mean of course she's going to be nervous about it, but her biggest issue is that he's living in the living room of his adult daughter's apartment. That, to me, is not a big concern.

Speaker 2: 1:40

And one thing that really struck me here too too, is they have advanced dad and son advanced to unsupervised day visitations. Now that's a pretty big deal in the step out plans for visitation in most cases.

Speaker 1: 1:58

Sure.

Speaker 2: 1:58

There are several steps before that one and dad must have done things right up until then, because the court is monitoring it and I'm thinking her attorney would have gone back to court and went. You know, he can't go any further at this point.

Speaker 1: 2:12

Yeah, you would think, and maybe they've already tried that, and maybe this is sort of the last gasp of why it's not okay, Right. But you know people get in trouble around her all the time because you have to be really cognizant of class differences. You know income differences and I've seen attorneys who don't know the judges make this mistake all the time. They'll go into a judge who I've been in front of a bunch and I'll know that that judge grew up in a double wide with eight siblings, and then they'll go in and say well, your honor, they live in a trailer and there's two of them in that trailer.

Speaker 2: 2:48

And then kids have to share a bedroom have to share a bedroom.

Speaker 1: 2:51

And then the judge is thinking OK. So I always stay away from this class based argument. If it's a place that is suitable, it doesn't become unsuitable because there's other family there, as long as the other family is suitable, so that would not be a concern. Now, we don't know the age of this child, so certainly privacy will be an issue potentially. And what are the sleeping arrangements? Do we have a bed for him? If there's a couch, you know how is that going to work?

Speaker 2: 3:26

She also doesn't say we can only assume that the adult daughter was living in that apartment by herself. We don't know if she has a female of any age that would be doing the. Oh no, it's son.

Speaker 1: 3:53

It's a son, that's right.

Speaker 2: 3:55

So yeah, that would. I was going to say if it was a girl child, she could maybe share a bedroom not necessarily a bed, but a bedroom with the big sister, so both the girls would be in the bedroom. But the one thing I do hear, even with the boys, is they don't need a whole bedroom, but they need some space. It's identified as theirs. They need something could be a tub of things that are theirs. That's identified as their space. And there are lots of different ways people make that happen, sometimes with a carton or sectioning off a part of something. But they do need that space.

Speaker 1: 4:34

Well, we had so funny. We've recorded another podcast just a little bit ago about distance and this one about space. When I was a kid, my sister and I would go to visitation. My dad had primary custody. We'd have this station with my mom every other weekend and she lived like an hour and a half away, roughly Wow, and she had an apartment Kind of both of these issues, right, both issues and I would always be in the living room on the floor or on a pullout couch. From the time I was I don't know, maybe eight, until I was 13 when she passed away, and it never bothered me, I loved it. I was like where the TV away, and it never bothered me, I loved it. I was like where the TV was, it was awesome. So to me that's not a it's not a big deal, as long as the space is appropriate, you don't have people coming and going.

Speaker 2: 5:25

Then I mean.

Speaker 1: 5:26

I think that's fine.

Speaker 2: 5:27

And most boys are different about that than girls Around. Here too, we hear a lot about either parent living with their extended family, and it can be usually where the child winds up at a guest room or something like that, and sometimes it's kind of a stuffy old guest room, you know. And so I'm a proponent of okay, let's get that child whatever age appropriate comforter, you know, if it's a boy, the star Wars stuff or whatever. If it's a girl, then whatever frilly things she wants. But very little changes in situations like that can mean a big difference, like really can.

Speaker 1: 6:06

I mean, at very least you're telling the person we care about you, we think you're special, you deserve something special in a special place, and we're going to do that for you here. Is there anything else to say about this? I mean, it is so weird that she says that my biggest concern is that. What do you think that is?

Speaker 2: 6:25

Because she thinks he's already breaking the law or something, and you know she may be upset that the court is turning a blind eye to that or has different ways of looking at it. You're right about the judges, though. I saw that came up in a conference at AFCC many years ago that I heard a judge say that you know we can't put our own childhood family of origin stuff behind us when we're on the court. That you know if we were raised by our grandparents, that we may have a better empathy for the guardian grandparents or that kind of thing. All right.

Speaker 1: 7:01

Let's take her at her word and let's not impute motivation to her cherry picking what she's concerned about, and let's take this as being focused on what is stable enough for an overnight visit, not for a primary residence, but for an overnight visit over the weekend or whatever In your mind for a child. What is stable enough for that kind of visitation?

Speaker 2: 7:27

I think if the court has decided it was stable enough and surely they've been presented with that environment that father is living in. But it's the age and developmental stage of the child. The fact that he's a boy, like we said already, has definitely been a part of it. The court didn't think that overnights were important or, you know, the child wasn't ready for it. Hopefully there's someone like myself involved or a guardian ad litem or something that can decide that has been involved in the step-out program, that the child is ready for it, is happy with it, doesn't care about the environment, then that's fine. I do see some where either the behavior of the parent has not really improved, not on a consistent enough basis, let's put it that way They've relapsed, or whatever, where they can maintain for a day visit, even both weekend days Saturday from 10 to 6, sunday from 10 to 6, but the overnight is not really necessary or appropriate for the child and the child is not at all resisting those visits, the day visits, but they would resist it overnight.

Speaker 1: 8:42

And that's interesting. So I guess it's two parts to what you just said. So the first one, the first half of that, is what is stable enough? And from my perspective, so long as it's a place with adequate plumbing, sanitation, heating, the people there are considered safe and there's a place where the child can lay down and put their head and sleep safely, then I think that is stable enough for an overnight visit. The person doesn't have to be on the lease. I mean, if we'd look at how many parents are supported by their significant other, they're totally dependent on some third person, sure, so is that more or less stable than this guy who's staying with his daughter? So to me this red herring but the other part that you were talking about, I think is really interesting. Sometimes we are so focused on getting to that overnight visit that we sacrifice a good visit that would have been a great daytime visit and we just leave a bad taste in the kid's mouth.

Speaker 2: 9:47

I've actually had kind of a series of those kinds of cases lately, and so it's really brought that to the fore with me. I think before I had missed the part that there was only one segment of visitation with the other parent that they were really resistant to. So it sounded like they were resisting and refusing everything when really, when you can segment it out a little bit, that's the part that they're resistant to.

Speaker 1: 10:16

And that's the perfect opportunity to take it a little bit slower and wait for the child to say well, can't I spend the night? Because once you get there, it doesn't matter that they're sleeping on the floor in the living room, they want it to be there.

Speaker 2: 10:29

And I've explained that to the parents that if those day visits are interesting enough and you are engaged and present with the child enough, they're probably going to be talking about staying longer. They want to go ahead and watch that movie or do whatever it was that you were cooking or you know that kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 10:46

Right, and so the the parent who's hoping to extend to that overnight visit. I think sometimes they get so focused on the feeling of putting them to bed and getting them up in the morning, and that's something that's a lot more important for us as parents than I think for the kid.

Speaker 2: 11:00

Right.

Speaker 1: 11:04

At least that's how I've always sort of thought about it. So don't, what is that expression? Don't make what is it? Don't make perfect enemy of good, or don't? You know what I'm talking about? Well, apparently I don't either, Because I can't remember exactly what it is.

Speaker 2: 11:21

Not sure where you're headed with that one.

Speaker 1: 11:23

Don't make. Oh anyway, all right, we will wish this family good luck as they're expanding out the visitation. Hopefully mom allows the extension of the visits to go well. Hopefully dad isn't forcing the visits to go to a place where they're not organically ready to be. If everyone just sort of gives the kid a little bit of room and makes the visits interesting, then I think it'll expand and be just fine.

Speaker 2: 11:53

I do too.