Speaker 1: 0:00

Time to make a decision and take action. But we're not making that decision unilaterally right. We're still trying to work with our co-parent.

Speaker 2: 0:08

Which will require a compromise, no doubt.

Speaker 1: 0:11

I'm sure. What suggestions do you have for us in taking this last step, to get whatever compromise we can and then to figure out what action we're going to take?

Speaker 2: 0:20

I think, in order to really compromise, you do have to know what your co-parent wants, and especially what they feel is not fair, because I know we hear that all the time from people. But it's not fair that I don't get enough time with my children or that I have to do this or that, and so that also usually means that they feel disrespected in this situation. And so in what way are they feeling disrespected? Is that coming from something the court ordered or something I, as the co-parent, are still doing to them? That makes them feel less than in some way?

Speaker 1: 1:03

I know all of us are tempted at times to say they're an adult, they can deal with it, but that's not the most helpful way to think about it, because what you're trying to do is to reach a resolution that's going to create some stability, so you don't have to keep revisiting the same thing over and over again, and leaving one party feeling disrespected is just a recipe for disasters. It's a recipe for you to have to revisit the same scenario again and again.

Speaker 2: 1:32

Disrespect is there, whether you're talking about co-parents or gang members. The book we've both read about high conflict. There's a lot in there about gang members and how many people in a community have lost their lives because of disrespect going back and forth on either side of the fence. It's that same kind of thing, I think. At the root of it. I think you can probably quote the Nelson Mandela quote about humiliation.

Speaker 1: 2:03

There's no person more dangerous than a person who's been humiliated, even if they were rightfully humiliated.

Speaker 2: 2:10

Even if you're right, when you're trying to make a compromise here or find a resolution, even if your side is right, at what cost are you and have you disrespected or humiliated your co-parent in the process? And that's the part they're going to remember.

Speaker 1: 2:29

They may give in on this one because of tactical considerations, but if you haven't addressed the root issue, it's just going to creep back up.

Speaker 2: 2:36

Or even if they think you're right, which they might Are they ever going to let you know that if you humiliated them in some way?

Speaker 1: 2:46

And if you give them ground to say face yes, totally, you're much more likely to get what it is that you're looking for and let them feel as if they've maintained their self-respect.

Speaker 2: 2:58

So much better to address the concern, the feeling, validate that I can understand where this just would not feel fair and I'd like to try such and such to help it be more fair to you but especially to our child.

Speaker 1: 3:19

And a lot of times what you'll get especially if you say that to a guy a lot of times what a guy will say to that is yeah, you're right, but it's okay and we can figure it out.

Speaker 1: 3:29

Like just acknowledging that you recognize that it's not fair. Women have a tendency to do this when they're really mad. They know where to get you. They get you in the getting place, and that getting place is your sense of being a man, of self-esteem and self-respect, and they just know how to get at your sense of self-worth so quickly. And men do for women as well, and that's just one of the more cool things that we do to each other.

Speaker 2: 4:01

And at the bottom of the fairness bucket it seems like there's always this I have to give something up. That's really important to me, and maybe it is just the baseline of my respect for myself and your respect for me and the court's respect for me or that kind of thing. But I think, if you can suggest a compromise, that that means that you don't have to give up something. That is just really a line in the sand for you and your co-parent doesn't have to. But more often, more than anything, what keeps your child from having to give up as little as possible?

Speaker 2: 4:46

And there are so many times especially, I don't know, I'm more struck by this at the holiday season when the child is giving up important family time with extended family on either side because there's an arbitrary rule about where they're supposed to be when and one side, or maybe both, of the family don't even get together at that particular arbitrary time. And, of all things, a child ought to be able to be at both sides, and both sides of the family would adore having the child there and getting to see them. It might be the only time a year they get to see them, and those kinds of things are so important to me. When there is some illness or a death or family rituals of some sort that the child should be a part of, it just hurts my heart for the child that they are not allowed to be there because it's not that parent's time.

Speaker 1: 5:50

That's exactly right. It's not that parent's time, that's exactly right. And talking about how to reach these compromises, I do a lot of mediation as the mediator and also with my clients going to mediation. And what I tell my clients getting prepared for mediation is I ask them to prepare for me three lists. The first list is everything that they would get if they got everything they wanted.

Speaker 1: 6:14

I love it. What does their 100% perfect outcome look like? The second list is the things that they could live with. They wouldn't be happy about it. They might be mad at me, call me some names under their breath, but they would walk away and make a deal that day if they could get those things. And then the third list is a list of items, any one of which would be a deal breaker. If that's in the deal, there is no deal. And that helps crystallize for people what matters and what really works is making your list of deal breakers, because once you've identified those deal breakers and I know them then they're confident that I'm going to talk with them and remind them that it was a deal breaker to them. And if it's not on that list, it's not something to throw the mediation over.

Speaker 2: 7:02

Plus, if you're going back and forth between the two rooms where they are, which is usually the way mediations are done around here before you even go into that other room, what's a deal breaker? And if somebody proposes that in the other room, you know better than to take that information back to the other or try to, or see what you have authority to say and work on.

Speaker 1: 7:24

And even when you've made that list of deal breakers, sometimes just getting it out on a piece of paper as a deal breaker and then sleeping on it makes you realize it wasn't a deal breaker, oh so just putting it out there and understanding it.

Speaker 1: 7:38

and then the other thing that I do is I tried to help my clients quantify the actual cost of the litigation in hours of their labor, because I tend to know how much they make and if I can say, hey, this is going to cost you a hundred, 200, 300 hours of your work before taxes. If we take this to trial, are you willing to spend $20,000 to get this thing? And if you wouldn't put $20,000 today on the table to get this thing, then let's not go to trial over it, because that's what it's going to cost you. And so taking and the reason I'm bringing this up is if you're a co-parent trying on your own to work with the co-parent and reach a compromise position, ask yourself how many hours would I work at my job, free tax, to win this point, and it may start to seem a lot less important to you.

Speaker 2: 8:41

And I do hear a whole lot of people say that they're not happy about having to do mediation before one of the court proceedings because they just want the judge to hear everything and they really are not calculating how much that is going to cost them so the judge can hear that.

Speaker 1: 9:03

And what they're saying is they want someone to tell me that I'm not crazy, that I deserve to be heard, even if they disagree with me. I just want the authority to have heard my concerns.

Speaker 2: 9:16

And maybe respect them as the parent.

Speaker 1: 9:19

And so what if we can short circuit that, yes, what if we can get an acknowledgement from the other party? That is a legitimate concern and I do respect your position as the parent and I do happen to disagree and I am asking for this compromise Right. But I'm validating your concerns Right In a real way, not just lip service. That could be really helpful.

Speaker 2: 9:43

And I think it's too. It's very important that the outcome that you're both wanting needs to be what's in the child's best interest, right? Thank you for bringing that back and so many times it's hard to even identify what the child's best interest is, and I think we've tried in calling it their safety, their security and their happiness and long-term happiness not just a short-term something their ability to make their full potential, to reach their full potential.

Speaker 2: 10:26

And I know sometimes it's hard to take yourself out of the way to really see what is best for the child.

Speaker 1: 10:37

And sometimes that, honestly, may not be what you want, right. You want to take that trip, right, or you want to do this or you want to do that, and it's perfectly okay as an individual to want those things Right, but that doesn't mean that it's what's, as an individual, to want those things Right, but that doesn't mean that it's what's best for your kid.

Speaker 2: 10:58

One of the main just across the board ways I see this all the time is there's an event many different flavors that could come in there's an event that the child is going to be a part of and maybe one of the parents has pushed it in terms of it's at their church or it's their choice of a sports team or something, but they're not happy that it's even that is happening. It's why does the child need the other side there? Why does the child need that other parent or some extended family there to observe the celebration or the event? And that just boggles my mind every time. Because the child deserves that and the child needs that, and that is what makes the child the happiest the child deserves that and the child needs that and that is what makes the child the happiest, and what we're saying there is to bring it all back around to your child's best interest is distinct from your own sometimes.

Speaker 2: 11:58

Yes. And that's what you have to focus on when you're making a decision and taking an action. You may not be happy that child is running across the room to greet the other side as they got there, across the room to greet the other side as they got there, but be so happy that you provided, if it's your thing, that you provided a venue for that to happen and that you did include the other side.

Speaker 1: 12:20

For that moment of happiness, for your child, you bet. And for your child to see that you invited the other parent.

Speaker 2: 12:27

How big is that?

Speaker 1: 12:28

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: 12:29

But then you dump cold water on it when you tell the child I can't go over there and greet the other side.

Speaker 1: 12:34

And then, as you're making this decision and you're taking action, just make sure that you really thought through these things from these different angles. Don't make rush, snap decisions. Always look for a compromise. Try to salvage the other party's self-respect for them. Try not to humiliate them. Don't look for a victory over them. Look for something that you really need to do.

Speaker 1: 12:58

That is how you want to spend sort of your political capital with your co-parents, right? And if you're choosing litigation, make sure that you're quantifying how much it's going to be. Quantifying how much it's going to be. And in my experience, if it's any real litigation that's going to have discovery and hearings and all of that witnesses being heard it's no less than $10,000. It's probably closer to $20,000. It's got to be a pretty short list of things that you'd be willing to spend $20,000 on.

Speaker 1: 13:29

If you put these steps into place, hopefully, what you're going to find and we're pretty confident that you will is that you are going to be making better decisions for yourself. You're going to understand both yourself and your co-parent a whole lot better. You can save yourself thousands and thousands of dollars in unnecessary litigation expenses and you can have a child whose life is free from a lot of really unnecessary conflict, which we know from personal experience and from all of the research is incredibly damaging to them. Yes, so hopefully you'll listen to this and go through it again if you need to, but this is a huge piece of making your life and your child's life just a whole lot better.