Speaker 1: 0:00

I hear a lot of kids say I hear that at this age I can decide where I live and I don't ever have to go back to the other house. They will say that or they will say I just want to be where I want to be when I want to be there, which is really confusing for the parents because they never know when the kid wants to be home.

Speaker 2: 0:19

And I've had several cases.

Speaker 2: 0:23

I'm trying to think in my head of how many that were modifications of custody orders which were predicated upon my client telling me that the child has made a really well framed reason, a request to live primarily with them, and then, by the time you get to hearing, the kid goes in and talks to the judge, if they do, and the judge is like no, he wants 50-50, or he wants to keep it like it is. In fact, I would say that's more common than uncommon. So these kids, and this is the very reason why they don't have the ability to decide where, they live.

Speaker 2: 1:02

So in Oklahoma, at least where we are, once the child turns 12, the rule is that it's presumptive that they possess the maturity necessary to express an opinion that the court should take into consideration as one of all of the factors in determining what custody and visitation should be.

Speaker 1: 1:26

And how that gets spun by the child when they're talking to me is the court says at 12, I get to decide where I live. I've even had much younger. I've had as young as a three-year-old tell me that at 12, he gets to decide. Now I wonder how he figured that out.

Speaker 2: 1:45

Those three-year-olds are pretty sophisticated with their research of case law and statute.

Speaker 1: 1:50

I'm sure.

Speaker 2: 1:51

Wow, that's the same view that the parents have. That's how parents hear it too. I don't think I've ever had a client come and say to me oh, I understand that my child is presumed to be old enough to give an expression of a preference. That's going to be one factor. Among all the factors, it's always their 12. They get to choose, so somehow that's entered into the common wisdom and what everybody wants to believe. When I hear that people are trying to make, or encouraged a 12-year-old or a 13-year-old to make this kind of decision, they have no understanding. I think of the potential pain it's going to cause these kids, and I don't think many of these adults are emotionally sophisticated enough to take that child's statement of preference and throw it into the ocean and let it go away. They're going to hold on to it.

Speaker 1: 2:55

I've seen so many cases where the child has told each of the parents that they want to be with them. I wonder why? Because each of the parents has asked the kid where do you want to live? And I like to tell kids, what if it wasn't an option where you lived? Because right now you're seeing both of your parents, you live with each of them, you have a bedroom at both houses, you have things that you enjoy around you at both houses, so why is it suddenly an option? And of course, they always tell me which parent, or if both are routinely telling them it's an option now and how do they feel about it?

Speaker 1: 3:39

most of them feel the younger ones I'd say the ones that are under 12, that are being told at 12 they get to make the decision are very leery of making the decision and don't think they should be. I love it when I've got a younger one that'll say I don't think I'm old enough for that, linda, I don't think I will be at 12. Or they say but I love both of my parents. Why should I have to choose between them? When they make a statement like that? Or when they say I just want it to be fair, or the same or equal those are the terms I have heard jillions of times over the last 30 years from children as to their preference. That really is a child's preference, unless a parent is telling them routinely that it's possible for it to be another way.

Speaker 2: 4:32

And tell me if I'm wrong. I feel like the reason the kids focus so much on fairness is because they live in a world without control, exactly, and so what you're doing is you're completely upending their paradigm by suddenly giving them control which they never have the ability really to wield. Well, because, from my perspective, in having looked at these, a child is always going to if they have to, if they think they have to, make a choice, unless there's trauma being done to a sibling, so sometimes they'll stick up for a sibling.

Speaker 2: 5:09

But most often they're going to hurt the one that they think will forgive them and love them anyway.

Speaker 1: 5:15

Yes, the one they feel the safest with, the one they are the most sure of the relationship. And I've even had kids tell me that, at much older than 12, they have decided that they want to. I remember a 14 year old, that's told me, and her mother. And so this mother was grieving the loss of her daughter when the daughter didn't want to stay at dad's and never come back. She just wanted to visit, but she wanted to try living at her father's house because her father had been pretty much absent for part of her life.

Speaker 1: 5:51

She said, linda, if I didn't call him to say, hey, can I come over this weekend, I might not hear from him for six, eight weeks this weekend. I might not hear from him for six, eight weeks. And so she said I literally want to live there where he expects me to be there every night, except for when I'm with moms, just to see what he's like. Will he pay more attention to me if I'm there? I have quite a few kids that through the years have said I want to see if they pay more attention to me if I'm really there, and they get usually quite hurt by the fact that it doesn't wind up like that.

Speaker 2: 6:26

They don't get more attention when they're there all the time that there's just so much in there, so that mother who was grieving, really she was getting the biggest. I love you and.

Speaker 1: 6:40

I'm so grateful for how you've been for me from that little girl and I tried to definitely drive that point home to her and I let her know that and so did the daughter. It was just beautiful I thought how the daughter was explaining this to the mother that all her life the daughter didn't know how he felt about her. And this was like her last ditch effort to figure that out before she leaves home for good and goes away to college and all that. And that was just an adolescent way of trying to figure it out. It wasn't that she was mad at her mom or even doing any of those typical age-related things mother-daughter. And I told the mother I'm not a betting person but I bet she'll be back in four to six months or earlier. And sure enough, about four months in, the mother emailed me and said she wants to come back, but I don't want her back. And then I found out yes, I found out that the mother had a garage sale and sold everything in the daughter's bedroom she had moved.

Speaker 1: 7:40

The mother had moved exercise equipment and made it into her own like arts and crafts room and so forth for doing her thing. Of course the girl found that out because the little siblings that were going over to dad's house had told her what happened to her bedroom. So the girl wasn't coming back at all. No, she totally felt abandoned then by mother.

Speaker 2: 8:02

So when the girl had started increasing and living primarily with father, increasing her time, she wasn't coming back and visiting mom.

Speaker 1: 8:10

Mother did not allow it. She wanted to, even from the jump.

Speaker 2: 8:14

Yes, that, wow, I wasn't expecting that.

Speaker 1: 8:19

Mother's hurt feelings meant that she did not want to further hurt by having the girl at her home.

Speaker 2: 8:27

So she just wrote her off. She decided, oh, I guess I'm an empty nester as far as that kid is concerned.

Speaker 1: 8:32

Yes.

Speaker 2: 8:35

Wow.

Speaker 1: 8:36

It is heartbreaking.

Speaker 2: 8:38

So how did the dad eventually step up?

Speaker 1: 8:42

She remained with dad but still was not happy at all with the relationship between them. No, he didn't really step up either. It was like she found what she thought she would find at dad's house. She confirmed it for her, and then she didn't have mom to go back to. She found what she thought she'd never find at mom's house.

Speaker 2: 8:59

It confirmed it for her, and then she didn't have mom to go back to, she found what she thought she'd never find at mom's house Exactly, otherwise she wouldn't have ever.

Speaker 1: 9:06

That's why it's so important for parents when they hear this kind of thing. That's the main thing I thought about when I read that the mother said I wasn't expecting this conversation and it stings so much. Of course it does and, like you said, you should take it as I am the safe harbor for this child to return to, and if you know that you can come back to it, then you will be able to try things on the other side of the fence and just see what it's like.

Speaker 2: 9:35

And in that case, the that you were just talking about, there were younger siblings. Yes, so not only was she cutting off the older child, she was telegraphing to the younger children that you were disposable.

Speaker 1: 9:49

And this is what will happen to you if you hurt me in this way.

Speaker 2: 9:52

So she went from what appears to have been a mainly emotionally safe person to incredibly unsafe. Yes, and also, what is she saying about the older child when she's home alone with the younger children and what's that doing to their sibling relationship?

Speaker 1: 10:07

And this happens in so many of our cases, because I've heard kids that do go to choose to be at another, the other parent's home that they haven't been in as often. Then, with those younger siblings, like you just said, they feel like they are. Whether those younger kids go back and forth or whether they're from another relationship with mother, they feel like they are ganged up on, they are persona non grata. When they do come back to the mother's house, if that's the side, it's got to be awkward, it is really awkward and of course then that makes them not want to be there as often what came to mind is when, especially like boys in middle school or high school when they're first dating and they're too chicken to break up with their girlfriend, and so they and I'm not going to say that I never did this they act like a turd so that the girl will want to break up with them.

Speaker 1: 11:04

So that they don't have to do it. That's what this is, yeah, yeah it is, and kind of I'm going to hurt you before you have a chance to hurt me, or I'm going to hurt you as bad as you've hurt me. Yeah, it's really horrible.

Speaker 2: 11:17

So is that a self-esteem thing with? Mom, Is it that she just she couldn't stand the prick to her vision of herself?

Speaker 1: 11:26

I think so.

Speaker 2: 11:27

Because I find that's one of the biggest things in my cases, and especially with men, but also with no, I'm not even going to say that it's equally with men and women the how we view ourselves as people and our self-esteem as individuals and parents are the biggest drivers of our interactions, I think, with our, with the co-parents and also the children. I've been known in my practice to take on clients who lots of folks don't want to take on, and one of the things that I focus on is trying to build up their self-esteem and capacity as parents, Because, even if they don't get the decision that they want from the court, they're going to be a better parent and they're going to be a happier person and they'll be establishing that foundation for the child once they turn 18 to typically have a much better relationship with them than they would have otherwise.

Speaker 1: 12:25

And so this, to me, just screams out a situation in which the mom, her self-esteem, is so fragile that she can only lash out and I know that mother in particularly had told me that she felt like she was being punished for all she had sacrificed and done for this child through the years, that the child obviously did not appreciate any of that or respect her for it.

Speaker 2: 12:56

So she had it all twisted about what she was doing and why yes, all those years?