Speaker 1: 0:00

Today we're going to talk about why co-parents should care about mindfulness, and to help me do that because I have no idea about what any of that is I have invited my sister, karen Cranville, a licensed attorney in North Carolina who's not currently practicing as an attorney and a licensed clinical social worker in associate status. Hey, karen.

Speaker 2: 0:18

Hi Ron.

Speaker 1: 0:20

So thank you for joining me. So first, to make sure we're all on the same page what is mindfulness, as we're going to talk about it today?

Speaker 2: 0:28

Okay, so mindfulness the kind of the quick definition that I use, which I got from learning about Jon Kabat-Zinn and his perspective on mindfulness, is that mindfulness is present, moment awareness, without judgment.

Speaker 1: 0:47

Okay, present moment, awareness without judgment. And why should co-parents care about mindfulness?

Speaker 2: 0:56

Yeah, it's a. That's a good question, because a lot of times when a person is facing a challenge, you know what they really want is an answer to their challenge. But taking some time to develop mindfulness can be really helpful with a person who wants to do something different. They might not even know what they want to do different, but it's about developing a way of being that's a little bit different. Know what they want to do different, but it's about developing a way of being that's a little bit different than what they're doing now and when we have mindfulness, mindfulness can open up an opportunity for the person to be able to do something different.

Speaker 1: 1:42

How does it do that?

Speaker 2: 1:44

Yeah, well, part of what's happening. So when we have a challenge, often and I know you've talked about like fight or flight stress responses there's actually fight, flight, freeze, people pleasing are all shutting down. They're all variations on stress response. So if we have something that triggers a stress response in us, what happens is we'll typically go to an automatic reaction. So that could be an automatic thought pattern, automatic feelings, automatic behaviors, and it's very hard to interrupt that without mindfulness. So what mindfulness can help a person do in the big picture is have an opportunity to shift from the automatic response to a more intentional response, which can make a big difference in just how things go, for instance, in a relationship or if we're trying to work through something with somebody.

Speaker 1: 2:53

Yeah, I mean, I can tell you with my clients as well. Sometimes I wish that they had taken a moment to think about what they wanted to do and you know partially how that comes in is if depending on the mode of their communication like if they're on a telephone call versus a text message, versus an email, versus a parenting app, like the different modes of communication imposed externally, different periods of response and different barriers to response, and so I feel like when people are on the phone, they are least mindful sometimes, and when they're having to log into a parenting app and they know they're logging into something that people are going to be watching, they tend to be the most mindful, and there's probably a spectrum in between.

Speaker 2: 3:40

Yeah, and there can also be, you know.

Speaker 1: 3:55

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 3:56

And there can also be, you know, times when a mode of communication might have a meaning for somebody that they might not even realize. So I'm thinking of a client who that he had gotten from voicemail in the past. So he just would never listen to voicemail and it made him look like he wasn't responsive, he was ignoring, but he was having an automatic reaction to something that happened in the past.

Speaker 1: 4:18

That's interesting and I can imagine, not even being aware that you're having that reaction, and then you probably probably, if you're at all a conscientious person you might start having sort of a sense of shame about the fact, like why can't I just listen to this voicemail? I know I'm supposed to, but I just can't get it done.

Speaker 2: 4:35

Right, and so this is where the definition of mindfulness has that part at the end. It's present moment, awareness, without judgment, and so what you know, the person, a way to get into that is being curious, which is what you were just modeling, why you know being curious of why I want to do this, but why is it hard for me? So, the so the without judgment is a part. When I mentioned that to my clients there, some of them are like Ooh, I really like that part.

Speaker 2: 5:08

I'll have a moment where I'm not judging myself.

Speaker 1: 5:11

Yeah, that'd be nice.

Speaker 2: 5:13

Yeah, yeah, and I think it also normalizes that so many of us are having this critical um stream of thought in our mind alongside what we're doing. So it can acknowledge that and help a person feel like through mindfulness, they have permission to pause that critical self-talk.

Speaker 1: 5:38

That's interesting because in our conflict management techniques that we teach, the first step is to stop and ask yourself what's upsetting you and why. And it kind of feels like this is a variation on that because it's just an internal conflict. You're having a conflict within yourself that you don't quite understand. So, just like as if you're having conflict with a third party, stopping and asking yourself what is it that that's upsetting you and why is a really good internal conflict management tool Exactly?

Speaker 2: 6:09

I mean, I think internal conflict is a very interesting subject because in life we have often have to come up with a response to something and there might be a part of us that's not on board right with the response, and so, um, being curious and learning more about what aspect of us is not on board can be really helpful, because it could be something that can be addressed.

Speaker 1: 6:38

um, it's just that as we are going through our interactions with other people or whatever task we're trying to accomplish, that that part of us that's not on board is like gets told to shut up right and so, if you have, if I'm a co-parent and I am needing to communicate with someone who has been highly conflictual with me in the past and I'm having trouble sort of being my best self in those communications, whether in terms of the content of the message or the timing of the response or whatever it is, how can I go about improving my mindfulness?

Speaker 2: 7:17

Let me look at it this way.

Speaker 1: 7:19

Okay.

Speaker 2: 7:20

And if, going back to the concept of, we have the automatic reactions and we're trying to shift to a more intentional response. So first is the very first thing about mindfulness that I think, when we want to start into it, is just noticing. That's step one, just noticing, that's step one. So if I'm having a session with a client and I'm introducing mindfulness, I will intentionally use the word notice many, many times during the session because I want that word notice to be planted in their head, okay, and I want them to leave the session with just one thing, which is just to notice.

Speaker 1: 8:04

Okay.

Speaker 2: 8:06

So, and in order to notice, we need to slow down, which is the opposite of having the automatic response. So often this will happen after we've had the automatic response right. So slow down and notice. Wait, what did I just do? Like let's rewind and watch that in slow motion. They said this and then I felt this way and just really kind of notice, and some people don't like, um, the suggestion to slow down, because for some people that can trigger a reaction of being criticized.

Speaker 2: 8:46

Oh right, yeah. So in that case some people like the invitation to slow down. Other people won't do it because it feels bad to them.

Speaker 1: 9:15

And so in that case I would use the word deliberate kind of be deliberate in thinking about noticing what's going on with their ex. Maybe a subset of those may be the ones who are most adverse to the concept of slowing down, because in their highly conflictual relationship in the past they've sort of been trained that they aren't good enough and so when they slowed down in the past or wanted to think in the past, maybe their partner was ridiculing them. And now they're talking with that same person and they're trying to think about slowing down and it's automatically bringing up for them those feelings of inadequacy or just conflict that they had in the past and in-person conversations with them.

Speaker 2: 9:57

And it can even go. I mean, I'm thinking of a client I was working with who and I was working with who when we were noticing her reaction to the suggestion of slowing down what? Came to her mind was third grade and being told she was a slower reader and that she got put in a reading group that she didn't feel like she should have been in, and the shame to her of being in this reading group that was for slower readers oh, wow so yeah, so sometimes we might not, so that's the kind of that's the kind of a thing that a person might not realize if they're not in therapy, where you're kind of taking the time to be guided through.

Speaker 2: 10:40

but, um, but that's something that a person could slow down and notice. Wait, when I hear what, what thought or memory just popped into my mind?

Speaker 1: 10:49

Right.

Speaker 2: 10:50

It might seem very random that I just thought about my third grade reading group, but maybe it's not random. Maybe it's connected to the shame of being labeled as slower being labeled as slower.

Speaker 1: 11:07

Wow, that's so interesting because we get so conditioned to think what happened most immediately, like the cause of our present upset or present concern probably has to be something recent, otherwise why does it matter? But that's a good example of how something can sort of jump out at you from the shadows of your mind, like the recesses you haven't accessed in a long time.

Speaker 2: 11:24

Right, and I think too, the one reason that those early memories are easy to disregard are that they seem so minor, like I'm thinking of a client who, when she was four, her shoe got stuck and she was walking with her dad and her dad, um, was doing something, and told her to wait a minute and he would come back and get her but, her shoe being stuck and him not coming to get her was very impactful to her.

Speaker 2: 11:58

But now when she brought it up to me in adulthood, she felt shame that she was even telling me about it. But when we're very young, those very small things can feel much more overwhelming because of the. We don't have context, we don't have the brain development, we don't have any autonomy, so very small things can have a big impact. So sometimes these childhood snippets of memory will come up. They'll seem completely unrelated to what we're talking about, but to my mind I really honor them and take a second to say well, what is it about that that made that come up into your mind of all the memories across your lifetime?

Speaker 1: 12:44

right anymore than it's random right now that's pretty amazing, the um so that? So part of beginning the practice of mindfulness is allowing yourself to be open to allowing some things that may seem disconnected to show you their meaning by paying attention to them and noticing them.

Speaker 2: 13:09

So it's noticing noticing our thoughts, our behaviors, our feelings, and so sometimes it's, you know, with a feeling. What we would often ask in therapy is when's the first time you remember feeling that? Yeah so, but yeah so having just noticing and then mindfulness. If people want to do mindfulness as a practice, you know, just for improving their well-being, noticing can be noticing a lot of sensory experiences. So sometimes, for example, if a person is feeling overwhelmed or in a stressful situation, a good suggestion can be to step outside if they're in a place where going outside is safe. You know, one time I worked with someone where stepping outside meant he was going to be on a shared porch with somebody who did a lot of drugs. So don't, don't step outside.

Speaker 1: 14:16

If you're on a submarine, don't go outside.

Speaker 2: 14:18

Right, right, you know, step outside, because that can really support noticing the sensory experience of just the colors, the sounds, the feelings of the air can help a person kind of get backgrounded and even just physically getting up from the room in which you're feeling stressed, going to a different space. Small practices like that can help support mindfulness Because again, it's opening this opportunity.

Speaker 1: 14:50

It's kind of getting back into your body, like those sensory experiences, or it's that brain body connection that I know that I miss a lot. I stay stuck in my head and I don't connect to my body or my feelings, and that would help.

Speaker 2: 15:06

Yeah, so what? So one of the things to think about with mindfulness is we go back again to wanting to shift from an automatic response, automatic reaction to an intentional response. So what do we want that response to be Right, like, what do we want to do?

Speaker 1: 15:43

differently.

Speaker 2: 15:43

We can't do something differently unless we have an idea of what it is, and so for that it can be helpful to think about values and priorities. Okay, so not necessarily a goal, but more of a way of being that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 15:52

Yeah, can we do an example? So if you're a co-parent and you're having difficulty communicating in the way that you would like to, what might be something that would be a priority or like what you're describing?

Speaker 2: 16:12

priority or like what you're describing. So it could. I think it would start with noticing what ha, what's, what's happening in the communication, like, am I jumping to? Um, okay, so one thing about communication is that it's emotionally very hard to be in a difficult conversation. So it takes a lot of emotional maturity to be able to hang in a conversation, because we're having to hold, at the same time, our feelings and also the content of the conversation and also the thing that we believe we want to steer it towards.

Speaker 2: 16:48

So that's a lot to hold onto at the same time. So sometimes you know, noticing can help a person. See, maybe they have a pattern of just wanting to end that discomfort as soon as possible. So they might jump to any resolution of this conversation, just for it to be finished. Oh, that makes. Oh, I see Right, okay, so they might jump to any resolution of this conversation just for it to be finished.

Speaker 1: 17:11

Oh, I see, Right. Okay, so they may agree to something that isn't helpful for them or their child just because, in the moment, they have that overwhelming need for the conversation to end.

Speaker 2: 17:23

For some people, you know, in some families growing up, they might have a pattern of ending conversations by starting a fight, because so it can be on either side of the spectrum it can be agreeing to something you don't want it to, or it can be just blocking something that you don't necessarily need to block, because either of those extremes ends the conversation more quickly, wow, and so it ends the discomfort of being in the conversation. So this is something that a person might notice. They might notice hey, I actually was feeling so bad, I just wanted it to be over.

Speaker 1: 18:07

Hmm.

Speaker 2: 18:08

Yeah, so that's an example of something that they might notice. So if that's the case, then they might think about well, what would help me get through the conversation, what would help me stay connected to myself and the content of the conversation and just get through this? And that might be different things for different people. Right, it might be having another person with them who is supportive. It might be the setting that they're having the conversation in. Like, for some people, they might do better when they're outside, or when they're on a walk with the person, or when you know. So it's that is where mindfulness is very individualized, because it's not going to be the same answer for every person.

Speaker 2: 19:01

Right and so noticing is like noticing what it is when. When does it happen? You know? Like you were saying, is it more when I'm texting, is it more when we're face-to-face or on the phone and just? But it's the. Without the noticing, we tend to fix the wrong problem.

Speaker 1: 19:23

Oh, that's interesting. Can you say more about that? Can you say more about?

Speaker 2: 19:27

that. Well, because if I don't understand, like if I don't understand that I'm ending a conversation in order to end the emotional discomfort and I try to fix that problem. Like, the problem is, I have emotional discomfort and can't hang in this conversation, but if I don't know that, I'm maybe going to try all kinds of different strategies or to fix the wrong problem, to fix the wrong hang up about what's happening.

Speaker 1: 20:08

I don't know if I clarified that any at all, but no, it doesn't Right, because I may then think that the problem is my co-parent, the other part of the communication or I may think that it's a request that they've made. That is just completely unacceptable. But if I were my sort of better, calmer self, just completely unacceptable. But if I were my sort of better, calmer self, I would see I don't really like that option but it's sort of adjacent to some options that I could consider. But I'm not having that ability to consider that breadth of possibilities because I'm getting emotionally overwhelmed.

Speaker 2: 20:45

Exactly yes, you said that very well, thank you.

Speaker 1: 20:48

And I noticed for me when I have really emotional conversations, I have that I feel trapped in those conversations and take notes because it's giving me something to do and it's also it's a version of that name it to tame it or I'm sort of engaging my logical brain and writing and staying organized with it and that helps me stay in the conversation longer. So I get that for me as well.

Speaker 2: 21:24

And that could actually, you know, as we're thinking about this in terms of co-parenting, of course, the other person is also having their experience, Right, so I so, when you were mentioning the strategy of writing, having being able to take notes and helping be more grounded or balanced by doing that, I was thinking I wonder what impact that would have on the other person to maybe slow them down too.

Speaker 1: 21:55

Or for them to think I can't even get this person's second notes. Were they going to use them against me? Are they trying to get evidence? And I think that's where I think vulnerability comes into to be able to say to the person, even if you've had a conflictual past, hey, I really want to be present in this conversation, and I notice that in the past I've sometimes ended the conversation unhealthily, and so I've realized that maybe taking some notes for myself will help me, like, really participate in this conversation with you, so maybe we can get somewhere. That might be a good way to let them know.

Speaker 2: 22:30

Yeah, and maybe you know if the other person is having a similar problem, because I can't imagine. I mean, talking about your children, for example, is probably one of the most emotional things there is, so both sides may be having this problem. So, you know, inviting them to do the same thing if they want, or saying you know we them to do the same thing if they want, or saying you know we can share these notes with each other, they're not. You know, the the value of these notes is that maybe it can help us talk Right?

Speaker 1: 22:59

Yeah, exactly, so you've identified, you've noticed that you're having this issue. It helps you focus on what the actual problem is. You're either moving to a location or moving around, or doing whatever it is for you, given your own needs, to help you stay in the conversation. What's next?

Speaker 2: 23:24

Yeah. So I think one of the things about One of the things about being intentional is, like I said, more about identifying a way of being that we want to move towards, and not necessarily a specific goal, because a way of being is more present with us. You know, we don't. We don't meet the goal and then give it up because there's going to be another challenge that comes up after it. So looking at it as a way of being and not a task, the other thing about that is that a goal can feel overwhelming. I mean, having a having a big goal in itself can set off the fight, flight or freeze. You know the stress response. So if we're thinking, if I'm trying to be mindful, notice what I'm doing and then shift to an intentional response. If I'm shifting to a goal, it might just put me back in the automatic response.

Speaker 2: 24:29

Does that make sense.

Speaker 1: 24:31

It does. And if you're dealing with a conflictual co-parent, if your goal is some specific type of resolution to the current issue, you're counting on the person with whom you're having the conflict to participate in reaching that goal, whereas if you're focused on a way of being for yourself, that's solely internalized and it doesn't require the participation or cooperation of the other person right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:55

So I would think of it more like, um, picking up a compass right, so that when we pick up a compass it has a direction. So in mindfulness, that direction is what's important. You know, the value, the priority, the way of being. A compass doesn't give us a destination, right, it just gives us a direction, and then what we can do is pick a next step in the direction of our values and priorities.

Speaker 1: 25:31

Yeah, which is how you do land navigation too. So when you're using the topographical map and you've got a compass, you're picking the next point that you can see, you're orienting towards it and you're getting there. And then you're looking where am I now? And let me pick the next sort of general direction. I need to go with some sort of landmark that I can work towards.

Speaker 2: 25:57

Yeah, so it's more of a taking steps in service of the intention rather than the goal, which is can feel I mean we still. I'm not disregarding that there are important goals. I'm just saying, if we're working on wanting to be more mindful in our interactions with people, being focused solely on the goal is not necessarily the best way to get there.

Speaker 1: 26:27

So what's an example of a kind of way of being that a person might focus on?

Speaker 2: 26:35

Yeah. So I would say okay. So the first one that came to mind is compassion, so compassion for self and others. But I want to be careful with that, because there's a lot of times where having compassion for the other person could having compassion be our number one value or goal priority could not, could be counterproductive because of things about that person, right? So it's good to have a couple, maybe like two or three, top um priorities, you know, compass directions and balance them.

Speaker 2: 27:18

Okay, so compassion might be one Um yeah, curiosity is another one that I think is really important. I mean, for me, in times when, um, when those automatic reactions are the strongest, for me personally curiosity is the easiest first one to introduce. Um, so, curiosity, curiosity, self-compassion, I think actually, um, there's a whole list that I've seen that I can send to you if you want. You can probably post it.

Speaker 1: 28:03

Let me make a note. Um, that would be wonderful.

Speaker 2: 28:06

Yeah, it's a long list, but the thing I like about it is that it's it has a sentence with it so that it explains each value right.

Speaker 2: 28:17

So sometimes there's just a big, long list of values and you're like, okay, what do I do with calm? So, and this is related to like the, the theoretical framework that would be used in therapy for this focus on values and priorities. It's called ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. I'm sure it's in others too, but the list that I have in mind is published by a person who does. They're big in ACT. In mindfulness, there's something called attitudes of mindfulness.

Speaker 1: 28:57

Okay.

Speaker 2: 28:58

And that includes things like non-judging, patience, beginner's mind, so some of those. I can see why somebody who's co-parenting might want to pick some of those over others, but that's also a place to look for ways of being related to mindfulness. It's called attitudes of mindfulness.

Speaker 1: 29:23

Great.

Speaker 2: 29:24

Okay. So I think the next thing I would, the next thing that I have in mind, is just go small, along with the idea of sometimes we just want this issue to be over or this conversation to end. It's tempting to go for the big solution, right, but sometimes it can be helpful to think very small. So, for example, just when we're reflecting and noticing, just have really small questions like what could make this a little more tolerable for me, right? Right, and that's something like the taking notes might fall into this category, but it might be something also like after I have this conversation, I'm going to go and stop and get my favorite coffee or something. Sometimes it doesn't necessarily have to be related, but small experiences of taking care of ourselves can develop a feeling of trust in ourselves, which a lot of people don't have.

Speaker 1: 30:44

How does how does that work? How does that develop feelings of trust in ourself?

Speaker 2: 30:50

Okay, so there's. You know how we talked earlier about there might be a part of ourselves that's not on board with what's happening.

Speaker 2: 31:02

Okay, so let's say that it's something that's reasonable, it's actually what we want to do, but there's this part that's not on board. That part might not be trusting us in some way. That makes sense Because maybe based on past experiences where there was something that we really weren't able to handle again, maybe in childhood so that part that's kind of holding back and not on board can be very disruptive to the process. But they might be up. That part might be operating on very old information and very old context.

Speaker 1: 31:41

Right.

Speaker 2: 31:46

So part of what that part of us might want to see is okay, is Ron?

Speaker 1: 31:49

going to take care of me, right?

Speaker 2: 31:50

Is Ron, an adult who's going to be able to make choices and take care of me. So sometimes these little steps of giving ourselves self-care which mindfulness can be self-care, which mindfulness can be self-care? These little steps towards taking care of ourselves can help, just bring more calm.

Speaker 1: 32:16

So and it's kind of you know that's like rebuilding trust in any relationship.

Speaker 1: 32:19

It's just a relationship with a part of ourselves to set little things that aren't the end of the world if it falls through, but if we can accomplish them. It ratchets up our level of trust so that we have a higher platform from which to start the next time that we want to build up a little bit more trust. And so I'm hearing you say that we're just basically doing that with ourselves or a part of ourselves. You say that we're just basically doing that with ourselves or part of ourselves.

Speaker 2: 32:40

Yeah, yeah, and it's kind of a signal. This is how I look at it. It's kind of like a signal to ourselves. Okay, while I'm working on this hard thing, developing this way of being during a difficult conversation In the meantime I know this is hard, so I'm going to help myself through this. What's a small?

Speaker 1: 33:21

thing I could do to help myself through this. That might be related to this thing or not related to this thing, but just something I can do to help the insecure parts of me feel like they're being seen and taken care of. Okay.

Speaker 2: 33:35

So, if we're going to wrap up this conversation about mindfulness, what's a client where I'm introducing this for the first time is to just start. It's a lot, you know, it can be a lot to think about mindfulness and trying to shift from automatic reaction to an intentional response, but just start with noticing. Just start with doing a lot of noticing. Um of you know, just reviewing what happened or think about what happened in the past. Or, if something's coming up, notice how you're feeling about it. Just notice and see. Ask yourself a lot of questions like what's hard about this, what's so bad about this? And I'm not trying to minimize, because I know there are things that are really hard and bad. It's just sometimes, like you were saying, what's hard and bad about it might be a little bit different from what we're assuming it is.

Speaker 1: 34:35

Okay, so notice. So I guess the. To sum it up, why co-parents should care about mindfulness is because it can help you understand what really is going on with you. If you can help understand what's going on with you a little bit better, it can help you be more present in the situation, it can help with your communication and it can help you do the things that you actually really want to do to make sure that your kids are taken care of the best you can.

Speaker 2: 35:10

Absolutely it makes. It opens up the opportunity to start doing something a little bit differently, because a lot of times people are looking for help because they're stuck feeling stuck in a repeated pattern, for example. So open up the opportunity to do something a little bit different, and the starting point for that is noticing, like getting a really good assessment or research about what's going on okay, perfect, well, thank Well.

Speaker 1: 35:41

Thank you, karen, I appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 35:43

Yeah, you're welcome, it's my pleasure.