Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey everybody, this week we're going to discuss a pretty controversial topic, which is spanking and corporal punishment more generally. The question for today is whether spanking should be even a tool in your discipline toolkit. We'll talk about arguments from both sides, discuss some academic research related to the topic and then discuss what it means for you as co-parents. So, in particular, this episode is going to focus on a few materials In a limited way. We're going to talk about no Drama Discipline, a book we've discussed before Raising an Emotionally Intelligent Child, which we've also discussed, and two academic research articles associated with the American Psychological Association. The first one is Spanking and Child Outcomes Old Controversies and New Meta-Analyses, which was published by the Journal of Family Psychology in 2016. And then the Strength of the Causal Evidence Against Physical Punishment of Children and Its Implications for Parents, psychology and Policymakers, which was published by the journal American Psychologist in 2018. Okay, so let's first talk about some of the arguments for spanking. Many of the parents who support spanking they do that because it's part of the way that they were raised. I mean, I remember even when I was in school in the late 70s and during the 80s, there were paddle rooms in schools and I was spanked with a paddle by teachers on more than one occasion. In some states it's still technically legal for schools to implement corporal punishment, although most of them don't, and I imagine that there really won't be many at all that do that in another 10 years or so.

Speaker 1: 1:33

For generations, spanking has been seen as a pretty effective way to correct bad behavior. In some houses, spanking is seen as not just maybe effective, but necessary, a necessary tool to maintain some order amongst the chaos and to maintain parental discipline and authority, especially when kids are young and they may not really be able to respond well to reasoning. Parents argue that spanking provides some immediate consequences for bad behavior and that makes sure that kids understand really right away what they did wrong, especially if it's something that is a safety issue. You know your kids sticking a fork in an outlet. There's also this belief that spanking, when it's used very sparingly and without anger, can be a tool to reinforce boundaries and respect. Lots of parents believe that if spanking is part of a broader strategy of discipline, instead of just the first option or the only option, you can use it to help keep kids in line, help them really prefer and respect other methods like timeouts or loss of privileges. They know that if those don't work, they're going to get to spanking, which they want to avoid. So in that way, some parents use spanking as a last resort when more hands-off methods may not have the same effect. And there's really no doubt that spanking can, in the short term, control some of your child's behavior. But here's the question on the other side what are the long-term effects? I know that was a pretty short introduction of the pro-spanking side and that's because I don't think there's a lot of evidence to support it. It's more a tradition and sure it definitely works in some ways for the short term. But we're going to talk now why you shouldn't spank and, to sort of jump to the end, I don't think you should spank.

Speaker 1: 3:21

Research against spanking. So it's pretty clear Spanking is linked ultimately with more harm than good. One of the most comprehensive analyses is found in spanking, in child outcomes, old controversies and new meta-analyses, and that research shows that spanking is associated with a whole range of negative long-term outcomes for kids and for adults, negative long-term outcomes for kids and for adults. And so to be sure that we're all talking about the same thing when we say spanking, here's the definition that's used in that particular meta-analysis. So spanking there was defined as hitting a child on the buttocks or extremities using an open hand. So this definition excludes use of objects, excludes methods that have a reasonable expectation of causing harm or injury, so for example, beating, burning, choking, whipping, and methods that are gratuitous expressions of parental displeasure without any clear disciplinary component. So for example, pulling hair, shaking, shoving, and I would take some of those from before and put them down like burning and choking. I have no idea why those would ever be things that are defined as having any sort of disciplinary component whatsoever. So that's how they define spanking and that's how they contrast it with physical punishment that is not spanking and is not really intended by the parent to discipline. Rather it's just to punish or bully is what I would say. So this definition of spanking is important because it does differentiate spanking from physical abuse. Spanking, as defined here, the hitting a child on the buttocks or extremities using an open hand. That is generally legal throughout the world, including the United States.

Speaker 1: 5:09

So the main purpose of this particular article was to find out whether spanking alone, separated from other, excluded more harsh punishments, would also be linked to negative outcomes for children, because we know that physical abuse, aside from punishment, right, just physical abuse and emotional abuse and all the other types of abuse lead to negative outcomes for kids. The question is does spanking lead to similar negative outcomes? And the conclusion of this meta-analysis was that yes. Now the size of the effect for spanking alone, in terms of a negative effect, was smaller than for other punishments that we would all consider physical abuse. The connection between spanking and negative effects on kids was still significant. So for kids, spanking was associated with more aggression, more antisocial behavior, more externalizing problems, more internalizing problems, more mental health problems and more negative relationships with their parents. There was also a result that spanking was significantly associated with lower moral internalization, lower cognitive ability and lower self-esteem. So pretty much all around, it's not a good deal. Now, for adults who were spanked as children, they were more likely to display antisocial behavior, mental health problems and they also tended to support similar physical punishment for their own children.

Speaker 1: 6:34

So it's important to make a distinction and maybe it's important to me and not to thee, but it's important for me to make a distinction between correlation and causation. So the studies that were included in this meta-analysis they were correlational and not causal, and that reduces what we can say we actually learned from the studies. So, for example, it could be the case that kids who display more externalizing problems are more likely to be spanked. Rather than spanking being the cause of the externalizing behaviors I mean likely, there is a self-reinforcing cycle of poor behavior that leads to spanking, which increases the likelihood of poor behavior after a brief period of fear-induced improvement. So you could get this reinforcing cycle that muddies up the causation.

Speaker 1: 7:22

Now there's the second article, causal Evidence Against Physical Punishment of Children, and that took a different approach and their conclusions more strongly support a causal conclusion. Their research more strongly supports a causal conclusion that spanking causes negative child outcomes. And it's interesting, to me at least, to understand why these articles can't come to a purely causal conclusion based on, for example, randomized controlled trials that we hear about, with other types of studies that are kind of gold standard. I mean, basically it would be unethical to set up experiments in which some children are subjected to physical punishment and some aren't and then to look and see if the spanked children developed emotional or psychological problems. I mean it's pretty easy to understand why that wouldn't work. There's ethical committees that are the gatekeepers to these studies and that would never clear an ethics committee looking to determine whether or not a study should be approved. But there are definitely reasons to believe that the connection between spanking and poor child outcomes is causal and it's based on some pretty well-established criteria for determining causality, known as Hill's criteria of causality. So another way of saying that is it's a set of criteria for how you can tell if thing A causes thing B. So if it were kind of up to me, I would bore every single one of you as I walk through each of the factors, because I think it's kind of fascinating. But here is a summary as it relates to this particular article's conclusion. So it is plausible. That's one of the criteria.

Speaker 1: 8:52

It's plausible that physical punishment affects children's behavior because parents intend to modify behavior through spanking. The hypothesis that physical punishment could have negative effects is consistent with what we know about other forms of physical aggression as well, like bullying and intimate partner violence. Now, across dozens of studies, physical punishment has been consistently linked with negative child outcomes and that consistency is another criteria. So negative child outcomes like aggression, antisocial behavior, mental health issues and strained parent-child relationships are consistently linked with physical punishment. This consistency itself also strengthens the argument for causality, because these results have been replicated in diverse contexts with diverse populations. Additionally, there's the strength of the association between spanking and these detrimental outcomes and the strength in the association with things like increased aggression and behavioral problems. That was found to be significant. Aggression and behavioral problems. That was found to be significant. Going even further, studies have shown what they call a dose-response relationship, where more frequent or more severe physical punishment leads to worse outcomes, and that also is a strong indicator of causality. Now here's an important one Longitudinal studies, where spanking precedes the development of negative outcomes, really does help to establish that physical punishment probably causes the negative outcomes instead of just being a response to pre-existing behavioral problems in kids.

Speaker 1: 10:25

This is a really important indicator of causation, so I'm going to dig into it a little bit more. So a longitudinal study is a study with a research design that involves repeatedly observing the same subjects over an extended period of time, which could be years or decades, and the key thing about this type of study is that it tracks changes or developments in individuals or groups, or whoever, across time. Researchers collect data at multiple points in time, and that allows them to observe how specific variables, in this case such as behaviors, evolve over time. So let's do a specific example here. In a longitudinal study on spanking and child behavior, if you're a researcher, you could assess children before they've ever been spanked, at the age of 5, and then follow up at ages 7, 10, and 12, once spanking has begun, to see how spanking at the younger ages influences their development over time. This kind of study helps establish what they call temporal precedence. That means that it can show that certain outcomes, like increased aggression, occur after an event like spanking, which is important for making that causal inference. The cause has to precede the effect. The cause has to come first in time, and that's what they mean by temporal precedence.

Speaker 1: 11:40

And finally, this particular article addressed the concerns about selection bias and confounding variables. Now, confounding variables are variables that are not part of this main relationship being studied but could affect the relationship that you're being studied. In this case, the hypothesis was that spanking causes certain negative outcomes. The spanking is the presumed cause, the negative outcomes are the presumed effect of that cause. But there could be other variables not considered by the study that could make it just seem like spanking causes the negative effects, when maybe something else does. For example, you could have just a general lack of parental warmth that could lead to similar negative outcomes. We know that certain socioeconomic factors can lead to the same sort of negative outcomes, so the study used statistical controls and other methods to try to rule out as many possible alternative explanations as possible. And as you remove potential alternate causes, it strengthens the causal argument for the cause that you think may be responsible for the perceived effect.

Speaker 1: 12:45

Okay, so with all that explanation out of the way, the research in this article confirms that spanking is more harmful than helpful. We can definitely say that at least the analysis shows that kids who were spanked are more likely to develop behavioral problems over time and that spanking does not lead to better outcomes than other forms of discipline. In fact, both spanking and physical abuse were shown to have similar detrimental effects on kids' emotional and behavioral development, although spanking typically had a less severe impact than other physical types of abuse. So one critical thing, one insight from these studies, is that even though spanking may stop misbehavior in the short term, it does not result in long-term improvements in behavior. It's an immediate fix, but it causes more trouble over time.

Speaker 1: 13:31

Children who are spanked are more likely to continue acting out, probably because they haven't learned the lessons about why their actions were wrong. They just learned that they were afraid of getting hit, so they stopped doing it. So spanking may encourage obedience out of fear instead of a genuine understanding of the rules or a desire internalized by the child to do the right thing. And also spanking has the potential to escalate into more severe punishment, especially in moments of parental frustration or rage. So parents who rely on spanking may find themselves in this cycle where physical punishment becomes harsher.

Speaker 1: 14:06

Right, because your child gets used to being hit, and so if you want to get the same effect, you have to hit him harder or you have to hit him more frequently, and that increases the risk of physical abuse. That's why many child development experts argue that spanking should be avoided altogether. If you've ever dieted, you kind of know this thing too. Like if you go on a diet and reduce your calorie intake and you lose weight, well, then you're going to hit a plateau because now your body needs fewer calories. And also you know your body has slowed down your metabolism because it's kind of where you're going to starve. So then you have to cut your calories even more to even maintain that new lower weight, and then it becomes a never-ending cycle. You have to keep racing to the bottom, reducing your calories to maintain the weight loss or to get more weight loss. That's the same argument here about escalating spanking until this level of physical abuse.

Speaker 1: 14:59

So one of the main concerns is that spanking teaches children that physical aggression is an acceptable response when you're frustrated or when you're trying to stop disobedience. That itself can lead to a cycle of violence where children model their parents' behavior by hitting other people when they're upset. Instead of learning how to regulate their own emotions or resolve conflicts peacefully, they can grow up thinking that force is the best way to handle difficult situations, and this is where we bring in no Drama. Discipline. That book emphasizes that discipline should focus on teaching, not punishment. When we spank our child, we may stop the behavior in the moment, but we aren't helping the child to understand why their behavior was wrong or how to handle it differently next time. Instead, all we're doing is teaching the child that they want to avoid pain, rather than helping the child learn better behavior. So what's your goal? Is the goal to have your child avoid pain or to have your child internalize the principles that underlie the rules that you want your child to follow?

Speaker 1: 15:59

Now, if we turn to Dr John Gottman, his book Raising an Emotionally Intelligent Child. That puts another layer onto this conversation. So Gottman argues that children's emotional development should be a priority in parenting, and when we focus too much on punishment like spanking, we miss opportunities to help our child develop emotional intelligence, that's, the ability to recognize and manage their feelings. Spanking can shut down emotional communication and that makes kids afraid to express their feelings, which can lead to problems and emotional regulation as they grow older. So Gummett talks about the importance of emotion coaching, which is how he describes parents helping their children navigate their emotions in a healthy way. So instead of resorting to physical punishment, parents are encouraged to listen to their child's emotions, help them, label their feelings and guide them through the process of managing the difficult emotions like frustration or anger. Using that method, and also the method in no drama discipline, which is very similar, not only strengthens the parent-child bond, but also teaches kids lifelong skills for handling their own emotions.

Speaker 1: 16:59

We've also talked in previous episodes about why parenting suffers in the first year after separation. Everyone is emotionally dysregulated and everyone is faced with all sorts of different stressors. The first year after separation or other big life change is the absolute worst time to use physical punishment. I remember in my own childhood when my father went through a big upheaval with his employment and we had to move away from family and all sorts of things. That is when the physical punishment that I suffered was at its peak. It was the worst. Anytime you have that kind of dysregulation is not the right time to try to use physical punishment. If there ever is a right time, if you can't regulate your own emotions, if you find yourself getting frustrated or really upset with your child instead of being empathetic for what they're going through, you have no business using physical punishment.

Speaker 1: 17:59

Now, for co-parents, this is an even more complicated topic, as you can imagine. So, as you're raising kids together, whether you're under the same roof or in different households, consistency and discipline is important. So imagine this scenario where one parent believes in spanking and the other one doesn't. This kind of inconsistency can really confuse your kid, it leads to mixed signals and it can undermine the effectiveness of any discipline strategy that you have in either home. So it's important to have really clear conversations with your co-parent about your approach to discipline, so that you're both aligned in supporting your child's emotional and behavioral growth. So going back to no Drama Discipline.

Speaker 1: 18:37

That book teaches that connection always comes before correction. As co-parents, this is a key principle. Instead of focusing solely on punishment, it's essential for you to first understand what's going on behind your child's behavior. Are they acting out because they're hungry or tired or frustrated? Are there underlying emotional needs that you're not meeting? By trying to address the root causes of their behavior, you can figure out your children and guide them more effectively without needing to resort to what is essentially a crutch of spanking. Try to be an emotion coach. When co-parents both practice emotion coaching, it creates a consistent and emotionally supportive environment for your child. You're helping your child develop emotional intelligence, which not only improves their behavior in the short term, but also gives them skills to figure out their emotions for the rest of their lives. This can be a really powerful way to work together as co-parents.

Speaker 1: 19:30

Even if you have different approaches to discipline in other areas, you can make an agreement that there should be no corporal punishment, and I'm always against corporal punishment. In any of my cases, that will be a rule that I recommend. So you need to come up with alternatives or spanking and we've provided many alternatives in this discipline series, so positive discipline techniques are really the answer Setting clear limits, using timeouts, effectively applying logical consequences that are directly related to the misbehavior. Doing those things instead of using fear or physical pain to teach lessons will help kids focus on understanding the natural consequences of their actions. So, for example, if your child refuses to clean up their toys, a logical consequence might be that they can't play with those toys for a while. This approach teaches them responsibility in a way that's directly tied to their behavior and, importantly also, it's non-violent. It doesn't carry the same risks of emotional harm that spanking does. So both no drama discipline and raising an emotionally intelligent child emphasize the importance of using discipline to teach rather than to punish. So if you focus on that emotional connection, co-parents can guide their kids in developing empathy, understanding their emotions and learning how to regulate their behavior in a healthy way. It's more about building skills that are going to serve them well and not just stopping bad behavior in the moment through physical violence.

Speaker 1: 20:58

So I'm turning 50 next month. I grew up where spanking was the go-to. Spanking was a common disciplinary tool in the past and in some places today was a common disciplinary tool in the past and in some places today. But the evidence is super clear that the risks of spanking far outweigh any perceived benefits For co-parents, it's really important to work together in creating a consistent, emotionally supportive approach to discipline. If you focus on positive discipline, emotion coaching and the principles that have been outlined in books like no Drama Discipline, you can help your children learn how to manage their emotions, make better choices, develop a strong sense of empathy and responsibility. All right, thank you everybody.

Speaker 1: 21:40

Next week we'll be taking a bit of a shift. I do not anticipate that we'll be talking about effective discipline next week. Instead, next week unless something goes wrong with the technology I'm going to be really excited to have a guest on the podcast named Saul Kennedy. Saul is the founder of Best Interest, which is a new co-parenting app that is really kind of ingenious. We're going to talk all about it. It's a co-parenting app that doesn't require both co-parents to be on board with using it and could really help insulate parents from abusive, toxic communication from their ex when it just won't quit. So I'm super excited and grateful to Saul for being willing to have a podcast with me. I had a great conversation with Saul earlier this week. From what I can see, he seems like a terrific guy and he's got some great ideas, and I just am completely excited about having this conversation with him next week. So thank you all very much. I hope you have a fantastic week and we will see you next time.