Ron: 0:00

Today we're continuing our series, which is essentially an overview of how divorce affects kids, both in the short term and the long term. Last week we talked about the short term effects of divorce on kids and today we're going to get into some of the long term effects and really what we want people to understand is we're going to be talking about a lot of negative stuff like a lot of negative long term effects, but this is kind of like Ebenezer Scrooge.

Linda: 0:28

I didn't expect that I know.

Ron: 0:31

So you know he's going to bed, he's an old curmudgeon, and then he's visited by these ghosts and he wakes up in the morning and he's just right as rain. So our goal here is we want to be the ghosts that visit you in the night when we're talking about these potential long term effects, so that you can wake up, have had a sense of what that reality could be for you and to avoid it. So that's the purpose for today. Wow, I actually get that connection, as opposed to the ones that I normally do.

Linda: 1:00

It's really interesting how this guy's bright works, you know.

Ron: 1:05

So let's talk about some of the problems that we can have if you don't do it right. What you're not going to do, you're going to do it well because we're going to go through it.

Linda: 1:16

And I'm thinking too at the onset of this podcast, to how many people? Because now I can't remember the exact decade when so many separations and divorces started happening. You know, but it's not been that long ago really.

Linda: 1:34

It's like the 60s and 70s yeah yeah, within my lifetime, for sure, and probably not yours, but you know, and we are now into what second, third, fourth generations of people who have experienced this in their own lives, and so while we're talking about these long term effects, it's probably dawning on you Ooh yeah, that kind of happened in either my family history or my mate's family history, or my friends or somebody's.

Ron: 2:09

Yeah, that's a really good point. We have people who we can see now the long term effects both from the parents and from the children, and they've now both grown and we can see how it worked out. Yeah, yeah, that's completely true. The other thing we want to point out too we don't be, all you know, negative If you are in a relationship that is full of conflict and that conflict spills over in front of the children and they're aware of the conflict, these negative outcomes from divorce and separation, even if you don't do it perfectly, or no worse than the negative effects of keeping a child around ongoing conflict. In fact, you know, ongoing conflict can be worse for the child. So we also want to paint that picture. We're not trying to say that a separation is always bad. Sometimes a separation is exactly what a child needs. We just want to make sure that you have the tools to be thinking about how to do that separation well.

Linda: 3:07

And, just like they can learn some things from you know how the parents interact with each other before separation, during separation, after separation or divorce. Children are learning from the parents who are in eternal conflict too Right, and so it's. You know. You are always establishing the guidelines for your child as to what is normal in a relationship, a marriage, anything along that line, and they're learning what they think is not only normal but right. You know from their parents.

Ron: 3:47

Right, yeah, absolutely, and so we're going to dig into some of these different challenges that kids from separated families can experience and then we'll talk some about how to deal with it. And one of the things that they found just across the board that kids who have grown up in separated families they will often have more trouble with some basic emotional struggles like anxiety, depression, things like that they can start to bubble up during that separation process and if it's not treated, you know, it can linger on into adulthood. Whenever you perceive an effect like, for example, depression or anxiety and children who experience the worst of separation, it's really tempting to say that we can infer the cause for that effect, but that's not true. We can't necessarily do that Because it's so fuzzy.

Ron: 4:43

There's so many potential causes for each effect. There could be multiple causes that combine to get to an effect. You know you may have a child who would have been subject to depression or anxiety no matter what you did with your marriage or divorce situation. But it seems like something that can contribute to depression and anxiety is the lack of stability, a blow to their self-esteem, confusion about who they are in the world, because their safe place was no longer existed. There are lots of different things that happen with the divorce, of separation, each of which could independently contribute to a child feeling these emotional problems both immediately and in the future.

Linda: 5:29

And especially if it's happening when they're adolescents, it raises the chances of them finding some way like a substance abuse, drugs or alcohol to cope with that. And then, even more substantially, if there's been a move and they're away from their long-term friendship base through sports or academics or something, it's really going to be that they're going to look at that as a coping strategy.

Ron: 6:02

Yeah, it's kind of like alright, here's another analogy you ready, I'm ready, I just thought of this one, so this may not work. So you know you get a puzzle and you get the pieces. And if you're experienced and crafty you know you always get the edges. You put the edges together and then you find the other pieces and you try to get a puzzle that isn't too hard, because you want to finish it, like over the holidays, so that you can say that you did it right. So this is kind of like a kid's life with a versus separation.

Ron: 6:33

As parents, we want to give them a puzzle that's put together, a bowl, that is easy for them to find the borders, where they can get all the pieces that go in the middle, and we try to set that up for them in a way that they can complete it, like that's kind of a parent's goal. And then the puzzle at the end is that the kid has grown to be an adult. They individuate, they move out, they're successful. Sometimes, when you have a really nasty divorce or separation, it's like we took that puzzle that we got for them when they were born and we shake it all up and maybe we throw some pieces away, or maybe we give them an unstable platform on which they try to put the puzzle together. They still have to get the puzzle together, because that's them as an adult, but we've made it so much harder. We've made it harder to find the pieces. Some of the pieces may be missing, so they can never quite have the same complete puzzle again.

Ron: 7:23

They got lost in one of those moves. They got lost in one of the moves from house to house, so I know that may not be the best analogy.

Linda: 7:31

No, I like it.

Ron: 7:32

But we don't want to leave our kids with a puzzle, missing pieces, shaken up beyond all recognition, so that their job of putting themselves together, the puzzle of who they will be as an adult, together, we don't want to make it any harder than necessary.

Linda: 7:48

It reminds me of doing play therapy with children in my office and, you know, with so many kids through there. Sometimes the Lego set or whatever was supposed to be all together and a finished product wasn't quite all together and they had to substitute pieces or whatever you know and to make it you know their own. And so you know, sometimes certain kids, depending on their frustration, tolerance or their personalities, would just give up and sometimes they would complete it. Only it wouldn't really be complete and then other times, if they were pretty resilient kids, they would come out with something that was way cooler than then intended In the first place. They might even take off a few other parts and, you know, substitute them. And I think that the carrier analogy a little bit further kind of kind of, is how children do this separation situation as well. That's a better analogy. I like that a lot better.

Linda: 8:52

I just played off of it because I really I've watched that happen so many times in my office and thought about the difference in those personalities and you know it could be a child, you know three kids and not the same age and same kind of situation they're in. But how they addressed something that simple but could be frustrating was so different many times.

Ron: 9:16

That makes a lot of sense. And that idea of the resilience you know, having the understanding that they themselves can make a difference, that their effort counts, that they're good enough to try, like all of those core personality traits and those understandings about ourselves, those can, those were formed when we're kids, yep. And so if we are putting children in a really bad position as kids, then they're not getting all of those pieces into themselves. They're not, they're not figuring all that out until it's maybe a little bit too late for them.

Linda: 9:48

Mm, hmm, Wow, Kind of makes you wonder how any of them turn out okay, doesn't it? You know?

Ron: 9:57

I mean really you're right, let's just go.

Linda: 9:59

It's a lot, it's a lot.

Ron: 10:01

Never mind, guys, we've decided.

Linda: 10:04

That's why we're doing this because it's a lot to navigate. I mean seriously, we get it how much it is? It really is a lot.

Ron: 10:12

Yeah. And then if you think about to the financial aspects of what happens, you know you separate, you've got two different households, you know one parent's paying child support, but maybe not all the time. You know there's just all sorts of different things that happen that change the child's financial status and that financial status has an impact on kids that maybe sometimes we don't recognize. How does it feel, linda? How does the child feel, when they go from living in a nice, you know, average home to living in something that's a lot lower down on this issue of economic ladder because of a divorce or separation?

Linda: 10:55

I think it depends once again on the developmental stage of the child, greatly sometimes on their personality. But I'd say it's an anxious kid. It can depend on their personality as well. I do hear some kids that start to realize that one parent is living a little better than another parent. They or you know if one parent is staying in the home that they shared altogether and another parent now is in an apartment or is living with their parents or something you know the grandparents of the children they can see that as less than, unless they really are.

Linda: 11:39

Dr Boyd just this week that is quite happy that his father is with the father's parents because he is so thrilled with how grandma cooks and she's just all about cooking all his favorites now, you know. And so he's not seeing that as less than at all, even though mother is still in the home with the children. But it's frequently that they will tell me one of the parents is now in a scary part of town or it feels unsafe to them. You know those are those anxious little kids that are noticing that kind of thing and or it's just. You know, frequently I hear kids say that you know well, either one or both parents don't want to buy me the new pair of whatever shoe I like you know, or they things that they used to be able to like buying a new video game site or something like that. You know things that used to be kind of commonplace for them and the things that is their currency, the thing that they're the most interested in, that they aren't getting those anymore.

Ron: 12:45

And so if you put all those things together and it's not surprising that kids who have gone through that have some difficulty sometimes reconnecting it all together, like putting the pieces back and so it's important when you're going through the separation process to make us few pieces for them to have to put back together. The less you can deconstruct them as people through challenges that are not healthy challenges, the less effort it'll take for them to become the whole human they're supposed to be. I don't know, does that sound right?

Linda: 13:23

Yeah, I've got an analogy for that too, for my play therapy office. Go for it. A lot of times the children just would not have time to complete the whole object creation they had in mind while they were with me, and so I learned to. I had a really tall cabinet and I learned to get on my tiptoes and park the object that they'd created so far on top of that cabinet, where no other kids could dare get to it, you know and keep it in safekeeping till they came back the next time.

Linda: 13:57

And sometimes that's, I think, what we're doing in this situation too. Sometimes we're not recreating the whole thing at once, but you can. You know, if, while you're listening to us parents, you you think, oh yeah, well, that particular area is lacking in some way, you know it's, it can be added to, it can be still worked on, and your child can be brought in to be a part of the process, instead of feeling like they're lacking. They can be brought in to see as part of the team, and we can, we can work on making that new pair of shoes happen. Just, this is how we'll have to do it, you know.

Ron: 14:42

So one of the biggest concerns that I think we have is that when children, who have experienced the worst of separation, as kids grow up, they seem to be more likely themselves to have trouble in their relationships. You know, nowadays folks aren't getting married as much, so it's not so much about divorce as it is just a separation finding a long term partner, having children, living a long happy life together, regardless of your marital status, coupling as they call it Coupling or unconscious coupling, as Gwyneth says, yeah, but but that seems more difficult. Why is that the case? What's, what's the connection?

Linda: 15:20

Well, I think when children are growing up, they like with most things, and they're observing their parents behaviors and relationships and so forth, they internalize that without even realizing it as a as a way of dealing with relationships and how you go about relationships, and so they're definitely the modeling that the parents do about anything you know I mean really anything but especially their relationships are are definitely something that that children will probably mimic in their adult relationships.

Ron: 15:54

And so they see, this is my parents' relationship, this is how that turned out, so it's okay, for maybe that's a turnout for me, or maybe that's something that I should expect in my own life, because why I'm not different than my parents? Well, and then sometimes people go the opposite way and they're so insistent on being different than their parents not doing the same thing that they wind up crushing their relationship anyway. Right, because even though they have the right impetus, they want to have a good relationship, they don't have all the tools, because they never learn those proper tools from their parents.

Linda: 16:28

Or since relationships are two people, typically they are. Perhaps one person has observed a very long term relationship with their parents and the other one has not, and they're you know it's going to be tearing on that relationship's longevity, even though the other person is normalized to have a long term. And I think that normalization too, of you know, I remember people used to say things like you know, well, if I got a divorce, I would be the first one ever in my whole family system to ever get a divorce, and they were extremely hesitant to do so because of that. But now, so many times, and even, like you say, with with, I used to hear children say well, when I get married, when I grow up, when I get married, you don't hear them say that. You really don't hear them say that anymore and it's it's, I think, becoming more normalized that you don't necessarily get married and, like you said, but you might couple with somebody but not get married. So the normalization of it is something I think a lot of times parents do not understand.

Ron: 17:40

Well, I think it's sort of a breakdown of institutions too like, and not necessarily negatively, for example. Another example is college education. A lot of folks you know you don't necessarily need to get a bachelor's degree anymore, right? People see the, the machine behind the idea, and so they're just like, oh, I'm just going to get the skills I need. So folks are now looking at, I'm going to get the thing that I want, regardless of what it's called right, or what the institution is that someone else tells me I'm supposed to do.

Linda: 18:11

Or it could be certification and something that you don't need the bachelor's or a master's or whatever typically for, but you need that certification in that particular technology or something. Yeah.

Ron: 18:21

Yeah, and it's interesting you mentioned, you know, one person who grew up in an intact family system and one person who didn't. It kind of reminds me, when we were talking about our Christian indoctrination podcast episode, with being that concept of being unequally yoked.

Ron: 18:36

You know, you have two people who were supposed to be pulling the same life behind them together your teammates pulling this life, and you grew up with radically different concepts of what a relationship looks like, what conflict management looks like, what communication looks like, even what the ultimate destination is. Is the destination we're supposed to be at the same place at the same time in 50 years? Or as a destination we could be wherever we want, so long as you know, we don't necessarily hurt each other and we still talk to our kids if we want?

Linda: 19:07

Wow, I'd really thought about it. The destination wise before. That's a cool way to put it. And along the way children may be, they may become more attached to one side or the other. We see that all the time with that resist refused dynamic. With adolescents there may be more of an attachment with one parent. It may be that they then have a harder time forming stable attachments as adults in relationships and the I see a lot of people in their thirties and forties now who had that stable attachment with one parent, not with the other, and they are just a lot of fighting where one side did not want them to have an attachment with the other or spend time with the other co-parent and they still don't know how to be congruent with one side and the other. They can't love both of their parents, they can't enjoy time with both their parents, they can't talk about having time with one parent or the other with the other parent. It's just unbelievable that that I mean this just comes out of normal therapy conversations that I have with people.

Ron: 20:21

So what we're creating, if we're not helping children properly through the divorce and separation process, is a person who is predisposed to have the thought that relationships aren't going to last, who are predisposed to think about, maybe, communication or conflict management in unhealthy ways, because that's what's been modeled for them. Yes, at the same time, they likely grew up in a less advantaged economic situation. They would have otherwise if their parents hadn't separated. They may have attained lower educational levels because they had. You know, they had to go get a job in high school to help put food on the table, and they couldn't study as hard as they wanted to, so they didn't get into a school that let them pursue what their real aspiration was.

Ron: 21:09

There are just so many ways in which the tentacles of an improper divorce or separation environment can spread out Through a kid's life. It's kind of like, you know, here in Oklahoma we get this Bermuda grass. That's like a carpet and it just goes everywhere and it's impossible to get rid of. You have to take so much effort. It's so strong, it's so yeah. And so these tendrils in this kid's life is like this Bermuda grass. It's just sweeping across their yard and it just is so resistant To killing it off, right, and it takes so much of turning up the soil, of that work, to be able to get rid of it, and so what we don't want to do is start our kids off down that road, right, we don't want to start our kids down the road of having to, in 10 or 15 or 20 years, dig up their whole yard to get rid of that Bermuda grass that we planted when they were young, right? I?

Linda: 22:12

Just love all these analogies you're coming up with today.

Ron: 22:14

I know it's because we're sitting right, so we're sitting right next to each other because we're working on our four hour course and so we're not usually together in the same place at the same time. There's another reason why there's not video because we decided we're keeping it casual. We're not even close to looking presentable at the moment. At least I'm not big for himself, at least I'm not so. Anyway, that's it for today, finishing up talking today about the long-term effects of divorce on kids. So next time we're gonna talk about something that you probably aren't looking for. Maybe we shouldn't talk about it. Oh, it's gonna be fun, you think? All right. Well, next time we're gonna talk about a topic that some of you may not be interested in at all. Reconciliation, as an optional outcome, is part of our four hour course that we're putting together and surprisingly or at least I was surprised in putting together there's so much material there.

Linda: 23:09

I was too. I I know. When we first looked at it I was like, no, nobody will see that Part of this course. Why did I have this in here?

Ron: 23:20

Yeah, but there's a lot of good stuff. So, anyway, if you are a hurting anyone to learn about reconciliation as a possible outcome, I joined us next week. Until then, hope you have a great week. I'm gonna look forward to talking to you soon.

Linda: 23:32

Bye.