Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey everybody, we are continuing in our series that is, tracking, along with the course that we have prepared for the state of Oklahoma to teach family, to teach parents how to better co-parent during divorce or separation, and today we're going to talk about some communication strategies. And really some of the best communication advice ever given for couples was by the Gottman Institute, drs John and Julie Gottman. They have dedicated their lives to figuring out how to communicate better in relationships, and so we don't reinvent the wheel, we just take that wheel and we apply it, we put it on the vehicle. That is co-parent. That's a terrible analogy. You should have stopped me like 30 seconds ago.

Speaker 2: 0:49

I don't know what's wrong with that. What's wrong with that?

Speaker 1: 0:52

I don't know. I think it's horrible. I do appreciate that you turned toward me in that situation and built me up a little bit.

Speaker 2: 1:03

In fact, I think they've got like a whole new set of wheels for somebody 18 years.

Speaker 1: 1:07

There you go With fancy rims like the spinning rims on it, maybe a hydraulic like a lift kit, you know, like your car.

Speaker 2: 1:17

Oh yeah, my car. I do like watching those cars go up and down there.

Speaker 1: 1:20

They're fun, all right. So, linda, you actually attended a Gottman Institute event sometime back, didn't?

Speaker 2: 1:28

you, yes, a training many, many, many years ago. It really doesn't feel like it was that long ago because I actually do use so much of their fabulous practical information on in my daily life for myself, with my friends, with my significant other, and it's just and tell my clients about it all the time, and it is so simple that that means it's so usable. I think that's what I love about it. You know, you don't have to. It's not something that I've had to look at back up in my notes and go now how do they put that? Because what I liked about it so much is so many times.

Speaker 2: 2:17

You know, I've been a self-help and a you know reader of psychology information for up to 100 years. It seems like and it's so much of it you're like, okay, I'm seeing the same information over and over again, just in slightly different wording, and nobody's telling me how to do that differently today. You know, and that's what I loved about their stuff is that it's really, and in those other books it might have been just somebody's theory, but they weren't. What were they based on, you know?

Speaker 2: 2:54

And I remember attending a conference one time where the presenter was talking about doing reconciliation therapy and I was just kind of I don't know glazed over and didn't think there was anything new happening there, and so I was about out of the room and gonna go choose a different room to go into and they said somebody said how many of these of you actually completed these reconciliation cases? And the presenters said, oh, I think we've done five. And my friend was right behind me leaving the room and pushed me pretty hard through the door because she was afraid of what my response might be. But I think you probably know who I'm talking about Push me through the door.

Speaker 1: 3:47

I can picture it, oh my.

Speaker 2: 3:52

So not so with the Gottmans. I'm telling you they are, they have for very many years. I don't know what is it now? How many years?

Speaker 1: 4:01

At least 30.

Speaker 2: 4:03

At least because that's about how long ago I took their training. It was so in depth. I think they have a huge three-ring binder of the information but so many of their things they have formulated by themselves watching and logging. And then having thousands upon thousands of graduate assistant hours spent logging and watching couples that would come and stay in their weekend little apartment where they watched all their interactions and they found things they were doing that would spark conflict and things they were doing that would spark some positives toward each other, and then they were able to formulate their ideas around that and real people interactions Right.

Speaker 1: 4:58

Imagine that Amazing Actually doing some science.

Speaker 2: 5:03

It kind of is, isn't it? Yeah, really is.

Speaker 1: 5:05

And before I forget and I'll do it again at the end and I'll put it in the show notes the website is wwwgotmancom G-O-T-T-M-A-Ncom, and they just have tons of materials on there and I've used it in my personal life as well.

Speaker 1: 5:21

I mean, you know, I've been married for 24 years, which is not as many as some, more than others, but we have used gotten materials in our relationship to try to improve our communication and what I have found in my marriage is that the longer we're married, the more we try to improve our communication.

Speaker 1: 5:44

Wow, you know, when you're first married, and especially if you're having kids, you feel like everything is just overwhelming you.

Speaker 1: 5:51

You don't have time to do anything, you're not making much money, you know you're trying to just survive. But as you get a little distance and your kids get a little bit older and you have a little bit more time, you start to realize that if you're saying together, the relationship is just going to be the two of you and you need to make sure that that foundation is stronger than ever, because there's no other external reason to stay together. It's all the internal stuff and envisioning a life together, which makes it kind of strange when we're thinking about applying that to co-parenting Right, because it is a situation where now the person who you thought you were going to be with forever perhaps is now the person that you can't stand to be around. And it's critical at that time to say to yourself I need to work on my communication skills so that I make this new, different relationship I have with that person better than the old relationship that I had.

Speaker 2: 6:57

And I know we've all probably heard at least once in our lives of somebody who says well, you know, I actually like him or her more than I did when we were married, or we actually are a lot better friends than we were when we were married, and so that's our hope, I think, for all of you co-parents listening is that you will find a place where you can maybe extend a little more grace or not have the same set of expectations or whatever that you would have when you were married, and it will be something that you can practice a little more easily because you're not with them all the time.

Speaker 1: 7:37

And here's another thing too. It's kind of I'm not equating poor communication and domestic violence. I just want to make that clear. But in the domestic violence episodes that we've done, part of what we've talked about is, you know, if you are going to move on to a new relationship and have any relationship in the future that you want to have to be successful, then you have to fix the problems. Now, sometimes the problem was, you know, something like domestic violence. Sometimes the problem may have been substance use or it could have been financial responsibility, but sometimes it's just really poor communication.

Speaker 1: 8:14

So if you are in a situation where your relationship came undone in part because of poor communication, then hopefully, with a little perspective, you're going to want to fix that for future relationships so you don't run into the same situation again. Also, it's really important if you have kids, to try to apply some better communication strategies so that you can rebuild from the ground up a new co-parenting relationship, because you're not the same person that you were when you were married to your co-parent. Now the fact of getting that separation and divorce has made you essentially a different person. If you are a sci-fi geek like me, you are living in an alternate timeline, right. If you want to think about it in any other term, I don't like you. No, just kidding. I don't know, I don't have the creativity to come up with that on the top of my head, but the idea is that you want to make sure that you are becoming a communicator who people want to communicate with and who people want to maintain relationships with.

Speaker 2: 9:24

And that reminds me of what I wanted to say with lemon sneezed. You know how we all have those people on our phones, that when we get a text from them, You're like oh no. Yeah, it just turned your stomach or something you know and think about that's why I was thinking about when we were recording earlier, because it's like think about how much better it will be for you, just personally, to not have that reaction every time you see your co-parent's name come up on your phone.

Speaker 1: 9:57

Right, if y'all are working together to improve your communication. And here's the other thing too. It's hard to understand, but you fixing your communication will help them fix theirs. Because if you are using some of the techniques that we'll talk about here briefly, in which we talked about in the course that we prepared, you are not going to be a person who raises the hackles of the person on the other end of the phone. They're not going to be picking up the phone expecting trouble. They're not going to be responding to a text having just been insulted.

Speaker 2: 10:31

Right.

Speaker 1: 10:32

So it makes it easier.

Speaker 2: 10:33

And think about how you would do, like I know, if I'm in the middle of something. That's why I like texts and one of my friends texts me, you know, I'm not going to ignore them for hours. I'm going to probably say hey, get right back to you, or can I call you after five, or whatever. And it's a very friendly, positive way to say hey, I noticed you texted me and I really want to talk to you, but can I wait just a minute? And of course they'll be like, oh sure, no hurry, and that's a whole different. That's a turning towards, you know, like the Gottman's talk about instead of a. Well, I wonder why he or she's ignoring me.

Speaker 1: 11:16

Right, exactly, they're not going to the negative possibilities first, they're starting with positivity. So let's talk about some of these key principles. We know that Linda's already talked about this idea of turning towards instead of away. Linda, can you tell us about that? What does that mean? Turning towards instead of away?

Speaker 2: 11:37

Well, this is one of the simplest things that I mean. These if you're, if you're around somebody a lot, I mean you're either deciding to turn towards or to a way, and so many little tiny ways.

Speaker 1: 11:56

I love the way you put that.

Speaker 2: 11:59

It's so funny?

Speaker 1: 12:00

No, that's an example and I appreciate you saying I'm so funny.

Speaker 2: 12:07

See, we just did it without even thinking about it and that's why you know it's so. I mean, your partner can go oh, come look at this, and then by the time you rented the living room where the TV is, it's gone. You know. Of course, now back in the day, that was the problem. Now we can rewind it and show it to him or pause it or something you know. But I remember back in the day, when you know, by the time I would get into the living room or sit down, whatever pot I had going in the kitchen or something and run in the living room, because we didn't have TVs in every room either. Back then you know it would be gone and they go.

Speaker 2: 12:43

Oh, it was really cute, it was really funny, you know and you could just say I mean, it was a silly little thing, but it was like whatever you were doing, and then with that response, then you'd go. Well, they just don't even realize what I'm doing in here.

Speaker 1: 13:01

Right, they don't even care. Or they took. If they really wanted to see, they would have come a little bit faster. Or I heard them clanking around and they're an extra 30 seconds after I called them.

Speaker 2: 13:10

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 13:11

Right.

Speaker 2: 13:12

Or the person who's been clanking in the kitchen is getting, is getting their nerves out of whack because they're like, honestly, you're doing something important and you wanted me to see what was on TV. I mean, it does not take but a second to turn a relationship to a negative direction, and so it's that kind of thing that you you from something that minute to something a lot bigger, all those little minute situations that you may have a frustrated or tired or anxious or defensive turning with that person away, obviously, way away. Sometimes they're they're, they're really going to start to expect that all the time.

Speaker 1: 14:00

Right, For the guys out there, it's the equivalent of doing the Heisman pose You're still farming the person away from you, because that's the thing that immediately came into my mind. I've got this picture in my head. I really do. That's right. So one thing here's an example. We put an example in our course and I think it's a good example to talk about here as well. So you know, picture this Sicily 1942, if you're a but a Golden Girls fan, oh yeah, All right.

Speaker 1: 14:32

So let's say that your kid plays baseball right In Oklahoma. That's like every other kid baseball, football, volleyball, softball, gymnastics. So you're at this game, You're watching your kid play. There's not a single person in that place who cares more about that kid than the two of you. So if y'all can, they're all kind of focused on their own child, Right, Hopefully. So if y'all can sit near each other, right, If you can make that work, then if you can celebrate together when your child hits the ball makes a great catch, whatever it is. That is a really strong example of turning toward, of being on the same team, watching your child doing something that your child hopefully enjoys. And even better is if your kid sees you celebrating together.

Speaker 2: 15:21

And they will. It's like a, it's like a triple turning towards.

Speaker 1: 15:24

Yeah, I mean, what kind of impact does that have on a kid to look into the stands and see his co-parents are no longer married but are sitting near each other together appreciating his performance or her performance?

Speaker 2: 15:36

It's crazy and I cannot tell you how many children I've seen through the years that will tell me exactly what their parents were doing in the stands, the entire game. And some of them are really serious players of whatever sport and I'm like how could you possibly be pitching in that game and know that your parents were fighting up there or that your mom kept moving around on the stands because your dad was messing with her and kept, you know, coming up and sitting next to her and she'd wanting there and you know definite turning away. And you know the kids telling me how this is all happening. I had twin girls many years ago that were way into softball. They were so good at it. What was a picture? What was a catcher mentioned that and they got a full-ride College scholarship to play those two positions in college. They were that good and they could tell you a play-by-play of what their parents did in the stands.

Speaker 1: 16:39

Man, yeah, and it just, you know, you take something that your kid loves and you turn it sour Is what happens, yeah, so that's one issue. You know the idea of turning towards. If you can turn towards instead of away, that is huge. Another thing to do is to try to share some positive qualities of your co-parent, like expressing, noticing and expressing appreciation for things that your co-parent does. Well, it's not hard to do, so it could be something very little, you know. Maybe it's the case that you know. Maybe the dad wasn't the one in charge of getting snacks during the marriage, but now that he's on his own, he's really getting after it. He's packing healthy, nutritious snacks that the kids love and mom notices it, or mom hears about it from the kids and Maybe mom says man, I really appreciate how you're doing such a great job packing their snacks. It's just, it blows me away how well and they love the snacks that you pack is just, it's so wonderful with no sarcastic tone.

Speaker 1: 17:48

Right, with no, with no sarcasm, that is true. I mean, that's huge, yeah, that parents are here.

Speaker 2: 17:55

Yes and it's. It's, I think, setting you know parents where, where our job is to coach our kids all the time on how they're supposed to act in relationships of all kind. And so that's once again three-way turning towards, because you're gonna feel good if you're complimenting your parents sincerely, your co-parent sincerely and the co-parent should be feeling good about that, and Then, if you're doing it in front of your child, think how much better that is than arguing in front of your child and you're letting the child know that I do sincerely Care that you're being that well taken care of by the other parent and you're letting them know because, honestly, from what I hear it, typically the kids are hearing from the co-parent. They're with that. That parent Does not find too many things the other parent does to be good, helpful, appropriate, whatever.

Speaker 1: 18:58

Yeah, I hear that all the time too, and I see it in text messages all the time as well. Oh yeah, and I think a lot of that a Theory of mind is that a lot of that comes from the insecurity of the parent who's making the negative comments. They're afraid that they're not going to be seen as capable or loving in the kids eyes, and so, instead of Focusing on building up their own skills, they denigrate the other parents, right?

Speaker 2: 19:23

Where, if you are appreciating the other parent, your child is appreciating you doing that.

Speaker 1: 19:29

No, that's awesome, all right. Another topic we want to talk about is conflict. Conflict is gonna happen. It's always gonna be there. I mean, linda and I have conflict from time to time. Do yes, we do.

Speaker 2: 19:47

What do we had conflict.

Speaker 1: 19:49

Do you ever remember? I'm just kidding, no, but there are little things that we are together that much. There are these little things that can happen, that can be conflictual. You can have Disagreements, you can have different approaches, you can have, you know, times of availability that don't match. Those are all little instances of things that are to some degree conflict, but in a healthy relationship you take those opportunities to turn any potential conflict that you can into a positive Relationship, enhancing experience. So conflict, it doesn't have to be a dirty word. Conflict, in my mind, when done well, is an opportunity to learn more about each other. It's an opportunity to go out of your way to do something kind and generous for the other person. Conflict doesn't have to be bad. It can be constructive, and so managing conflict in an appropriate way Can resolve issues that are arising and can also build a relationship with the same person At the same time.

Speaker 2: 20:53

Very good way to put it. What about the parents that are listening to us right now thinking what if I'm always the only one trying to do this positive stuff?

Speaker 1: 21:04

Well then, good for you. I mean because if you're the one who's always trying to do the positive stuff, that means that you're working on the muscle memory Of being positive and being a good participant in a relationship. That's going to help you with every relationship you have. It's going to help you in your relationship with your children, with your current partner, with your colleagues at work, with your parents and family members everybody. And because you're working so hard to be the positive part of a relationship, over time it's going to make some difference. Now I can hear people out there saying but my ex is a narcissist.

Speaker 2: 21:43

Yes, I was about to call you on that one.

Speaker 1: 21:46

I know my ex is an associate path. They're never going to meet me halfway. They're only going to take advantage of when I am being the positive one in their relationship. That may be true.

Speaker 1: 21:57

They're going to view that as weakness, they're going to view it as weakness. I have that situation All the time in my cases and here's what I tell my clients If you are in a relationship with someone who truly is A narcissist not just that you like to call them that to your friends, but that they actually are a narcissist they're going to give you cornucopia of gifts as long as you don't step on it. So when you're co-parenting positively with them and they're shutting you down, being rude, trying to take advantage, so long as you're documenting, so long as you are not losing your cool, then what eventually is going to rise to the top is a set of examples that are unambiguous, that that person can't co-parent and that you're shining star and ultimately, through either additional litigation for modification, working with a parenting coordinator or a GAL, you're going to wind up reaping the benefits in that context as well, while also still separately, getting all the other benefits of having spent that time mastering the art of effective communication in your relationships.

Speaker 2: 23:14

I hope you were gonna tell people that. Sometimes I'm not really sure how much those things do practically speaking pay off with the legal process, but I'm really glad to hear that.

Speaker 1: 23:26

I had a three-day trial this week. I won't say which week this is that we're recording, so I don't know which one it was, but I spent several hours in trial going through just that kind of situation, wow, where one parent had a mix, and this happens as well. They will superficially, in one method of communication, appear to be engaging in positive communications, while surreptitiously, in a different method of communication, be attempting to undermine Right and so, no matter what it is, eventually I brought in all of the people. I brought in teachers, counselors. Oh, my goodness, I had emails, medical documents where things were being said, educational records, long trial.

Speaker 2: 24:23

So like one person would.

Speaker 1: 24:27

One person would be texting the other and saying, hey, this is happening or hey, just wanted to give you a heads up. School photos are happening next week, in case you didn't know.

Speaker 2: 24:37

And, on the other hand, which might have looked really good. They're communicating now.

Speaker 1: 24:40

And then, on the other hand, they're sending emails to the school that says no way, don't let this person near my child. No way, they're not allowed to do pickup. I want to have this testing done on my child. I'm not gonna involve the co-parent in it.

Speaker 2: 24:57

Wow, okay, yeah, both things at once.

Speaker 1: 24:59

Very interesting and you can match them up on a timeline. At the same time, on the same day, you're doing this Wow. You're doing that beyond?

Speaker 2: 25:07

the scenes. I've never heard of anybody doing that before.

Speaker 1: 25:11

Yep.

Speaker 2: 25:11

Damn you're good.

Speaker 1: 25:13

That's true. It's not good to lie, so I'll tell the truth. That's correct.

Speaker 2: 25:20

Well, and I've had that come up in my world by talking with one parent and I'm like they'll say how do you think it's going? You know, like the reconciliation process I'll go well. So far your co-parent has been very appropriate, has been complimentary about you to the kid and you know telling them some of the positives that have happened in front of me and I'll go. Would you like to see what he just sent me Like? At first I'd be like I don't know how that applies, but then I started looking at those things or listening to those things and going, wow, that's really intensely awful. And, like you said, you're putting it together with how can this person even be that way in front of me with her kid, Right and be, have such a what's that all saying about you? You kiss your girlfriend with that mouth. It's like, oh my goodness, you know. That's like I don't know how those two people existed the same person, right?

Speaker 1: 26:32

Yeah, it's, it happens all the time. I mean, we all are different people with different people. It's just it reaches a different level when you are intentionally undermining the other parent of your child. To me, it's inexcusable when that happens, it's okay to make mistakes. We all make mistakes. It's okay to even make bad choices from time to time. What's not okay is to routinely, as a matter of course, be duplicitous in your communications with your co-parent, actively undermining them while attempting to create a facade of healthy communication for the courts. Right, wow, so we're going to give an example of how to manage conflict. Well, and then we'll wrap this up. If you want again, if you want more detail about this stuff, check out the Gottman Institute. We cannot do better than they do on this topic. This is their baby, and remember that's G-O-T-T-M-A-N dot com.

Speaker 2: 27:40

They are the platinum standard of anything. I'm telling you, yeah, they're great, they're just it's, it's, and the way they word it, it just I don't know. It just kind of hit you between the eyes and you go, hmm, all righty, I know what I'm going to do about that from now on, you know, yep.

Speaker 1: 27:54

And G-O-T-M-A-N.

Speaker 2: 27:55

he can wear a turtleneck, yeah not too many guys can pull that off.

Speaker 1: 28:01

Yeah, you can pull off a turtleneck, I almost want to see a beret with it, all right. So, managing conflict, there is what is known as the hard startup, which is to be avoided. Let's think about this If you use a hard startup, it's going to be hard on your relationship. So avoid the hard startup and use the soft. All right, we're going to do a little role play example, and this example is a bedtime issue, like what time is the kid going to bed? So here's the hard startup. Let's say that I'm texting Linda and I'm saying oh man, imagine the venom coming. You're letting the kids stay up too late when they're with you. You don't respect their routines. I'm trying to establish you're irresponsible. It's affecting their behavior. You're a terrible mother.

Speaker 2: 28:50

And, of course, my response would probably be something like you are trying to set up routine since when.

Speaker 1: 28:59

It's not false, all right, but what's the soft startup?

Speaker 2: 29:04

Well, obviously you got back the same kind of hard response that you put out there you know which is real typical Right, and then it just dissolves from there. That's right. And the soft startup would be something like and I've used this kind of thing before in effective communication stuff with in classes I've done and so forth but you're supposed to think of it in terms of just the stimulus when this happened.

Speaker 1: 29:33

I wish you guys, I wish we had this one on video. We were videoing these recently, but Linda just did a great reenactment of someone looking up at the clouds.

Speaker 2: 29:43

I don't know where it would come from. What happens we might want to you know. So that's kind of why this soft startup is. I've noticed that the children seem a bit more tired and irritable lately and I'm concerned it might be affecting their mood and their school performance. So I wonder if we could talk about their bedtime routines and see if we might find a way to keep them more consistent between our two homes. What do you think?

Speaker 1: 30:11

Oh, I feel compelled to say that sounds great, it worked. No, see, but that the difference is you're not approaching the person with blame, you're not chastising the individual, you're not casting blame on them, you're not saying they're a bad person. You're addressing the situation that you're seeing, you're highlighting what your concerns are and you're reaching across the table to see if you can work together to find a solution that you're both okay with. Yep, that's the soft startup. Well, we could talk about this just a lot more.

Speaker 2: 30:46

One more thing I wanted to say about that.

Speaker 1: 30:48

We are going to talk about this.

Speaker 2: 30:53

I just thought of it. You know pretty much if. If you would, as a human being, get defensive if your co-parent approached you the way you're about to say something to them, just think how would I receive this? That's probably going to tell you you need to change your approach.

Speaker 1: 31:14

Right, that's good.

Speaker 2: 31:16

Most of us know what we would get defensive about.

Speaker 1: 31:18

Right, I wouldn't want to receive that so I shouldn't give it out.

Speaker 2: 31:21

Right, exactly.

Speaker 1: 31:23

Great point. That was worth. That was a worthy entry.

Speaker 2: 31:31

Sorry, I stopped your roll there.

Speaker 1: 31:32

No, no, it was good. I can't remember what I was going to say. I'll take that part. Okay, so that's it. I was talking about some communication strategies. One last time I'll point you to the Gottman Institute, wwwgotman G-O-T-T-M-A-N dot com to learn more about some really amazing communication strategies. As you're looking at that or any other communication information, remember you're still in a relationship with your co-parent. It's just not the one that you had before. In a lot of ways it can be much harder than a relationship you had before. It takes just as much work as a married relationship does, and sometimes even more, because you're lacking a lot of the ties of intimacy that lets you overlook flaws in the other party. So working on your communication skills will always benefit you, even if your partner won't meet you halfway. I hope you all have a great week and we will see you next time.

Speaker 2: 32:31

Bye.