Speaker 1: 0:00

Today we are going to start a series of podcasts that we are recording contemporaneously. While we are recording a required four hour course for parents in Oklahoma who are going through divorce or paternity action, anything for custody and visitation are going to be decided for the first time. And we thought, you know, since we're spending all this time coming up with pretty much amazing material, some may say perfect. I mean, I would never say that, but it's, you know, I could see it, we've heard. While we're getting all that together, we might as well just do some podcasts that track along the same sort of context, but giving maybe some discussion about it as well.

Speaker 2: 0:43

Sounds like a good idea because I know it can require not only a whole lot of patience and for the long haul but it can also have so many different subsets off of things. I know when I was on the quality assurance panel of the Tulsa Family Law Board. I tell you it was unbelievable how many I mean as a non-attorney how many little parts there are, little tiny parts there are in each one of the main parts had like 15 parts off of it. You know that were possible.

Speaker 1: 1:20

You mean lawyers liked making things ridiculously complicated.

Speaker 2: 1:24

What, something like that. Yeah, after, I remember we had these long butcher paper rolls of you know four of those juror tables pushed together on the sixth floor and those that butcher paper rolled out all down the whole you know table, and I was like surely it can't be that long. And then no, we were, and we were writing so small you can hardly see it once we got on the walls with it, you know. Yeah, wow, don't wonder it does take a long time, right, or it can. I guess that was like the longest possible if you went through every one of those little subsets.

Speaker 1: 2:05

But yeah, I mean the divorce process in Oklahoma could be very short. If there's no kids, it can be super short. It could be just a couple of days, even If you have children, people are cooperative. Right, right, right If they're cooperative. If you have kids, then the shortest it would really ever be, unless you get a waiver, it would be 90 days, because there's a rule, sort of a 90 day cooling off process.

Speaker 2: 2:30

That's a waiver.

Speaker 1: 2:31

You could get a waiver from the court to permit the parties to get divorced if they had children quicker than 90 days.

Speaker 2: 2:37

Really, I didn't even know that. Yes, just a part of that.

Speaker 1: 2:39

Yeah, that's possible. It doesn't really ever happen though. Oh, okay, and I just want to say for folks because we have listeners from literally all over the world and so I don't want you to be turned off thinking about this just being an Oklahoma-specific series for the podcast, because that's not really the case this first one is going to probably be pretty Oklahoma-specific because we're talking about the process in Oklahoma, but for the remaining ones, we're not going to be just talking about the process in Oklahoma. We're going to be talking about things that are applicable to everybody having a divorce or going through a paternity action or a modification. And even for this one today, although we're going to be saying some things that are specific to Oklahoma, maybe even specific to Tulsa County and the environs, the principles that we're going to be discussing are applicable to anybody who is going through the process. So just substitute in your head whatever the steps are in your location and if you don't know, don't worry about the steps. Just focus on the concepts that we're discussing.

Speaker 2: 3:43

You might be surprised at how, as we have been with the AFCC conferences, how similar our process may be to someplace in Australia versus someplace always in there or something Right exactly so.

Speaker 1: 3:57

If you are getting a divorce in Oklahoma and you have minor children, the first thing that happens when you file is that and this is really just Tulsa County, it's not in all the counties In Tulsa County you're going to set for what's called a parenting plan conference, and in a parenting plan conference it's basically just a big cattle call of a bunch of families. I mean you could have, I don't know, 50, 60 couples in a parenting plan conference and the judge is basically giving you a speech on how not to be a jerk during the process and the importance of trying to come to agreements and the importance of focusing on your kids, and Then you see if you can reach agreements. And if you can reach agreements Then you can enter into temporary orders right there and not have another hearing. But if you can't reach, a temporary order right there.

Speaker 1: 4:45

Yeah, you could, mm-hmm, I've never heard of that either. Yep, and if you don't agree, then what could happen is or what would happen is, you get referred for a temporary order hearing and and that's typically not going to be a very long hearing it would take you 30 to 60 days to get it and you would have to make a special request to get anything more than 20 minutes or 30 minutes, and sometimes those are done by proffer, where the attorneys will stand up and say you know, your honor. This is what my evidence would show if we put on evidence today, and then the judge has the opportunity to ask questions or to put either party under oath To get more specific information. Now, that's a Tulsa County process. It's not in every county. I mean this.

Speaker 1: 5:31

We're recording this on a Saturday, coming up on this following Monday, I have a temporary order hearing in a case where I just got retained this week and, because it's such a great attorney on the other side, we've already communicated and reached agreements and so, even though that County doesn't have a parenting plan Process in place or a parenting plan conference in place, we're gonna appear on Monday and introduce a series of orders. Wow, so it's possible to do all sorts of things. We are gonna have orders about selling the marital residence, about getting the children and the parents into some counseling, about maybe having some assessments done. I mean just a whole bunch of different orders that we've been able to agree to Just by having a conversation and getting approval from our clients, so the process can be as Complicated or as easy as both the facts and the participants, including the attorneys, permit.

Speaker 2: 6:32

You guys can't see how incredulous I'm looking at Ron right now, because I I'm mainly maybe it's the people I work with, but I mainly see people who Do maybe a year or two in the process into the process and they don't have a temporary order yet.

Speaker 2: 6:50

Yeah, that shouldn't ever be the case and many times one of the parents is relying on the other parent to decide when they get to see their child. Or you know, they're kind of making it up as they go along with how much they're supposed to pay for Child support. Or maybe they're not getting any, or you know, I mean either side. It could be awful.

Speaker 1: 7:07

Yeah, I'm both sides. That's just a breeding ground for resentment.

Speaker 2: 7:11

Yeah, right, so then by the time I see them there, you know all the patients is way out the window, no empathy, and you know the process is gonna be a lot more difficult.

Speaker 1: 7:22

Yeah, it really is, and what happens is all of that uncertainty Creates fear, and the person that you didn't, that you're having this process with as a person that you formerly were in love with, you may not have been in love for a long time. You may not have been in like for a long time. You may have been cheated on. You may have been abused or harassed. The person that you knew yesterday, once they filed the petition, may appear to be a completely different person.

Speaker 1: 7:49

You may be, hearing things from your kids that you never thought you would hear come out of their mouths, right? So If you add on to all of that percolating change, that's very disconcerting to everybody. If you add on to that free for all, where there are no rules in place and nobody is being the adult and there's no standard to which you have to hold each other, then it just makes things more chaotic and more chaos. In the midst of a divorce. Proceeding is not what anybody needs.

Speaker 2: 8:23

And that's what I see all the time. That is so sad for me to hear. First, I'm hearing about a lot of this Good grief. I mean, it makes so much sense.

Speaker 1: 8:34

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 8:35

That's what, and it would cut so much of that awful stuff off at the past, hopefully.

Speaker 1: 8:40

Yeah, well, and you do have a self-selection issue, because you see a subset of cases that are so contentious regarding the custody that one parent typically is not having much, if any, contact with a child, and that's not going to. It may not have for a while yet.

Speaker 1: 8:55

It causes all the above Right. So that's going to pump the brakes? Oh, very much so On the process. Because what happens is a temporary order is supposed to be just that. It's supposed to be temporary.

Speaker 1: 9:08

But judges happen to be human beings and when a judge hears the parties agreeing to a certain set of conditions for a temporary order and the parties are telling the court that those orders are in the child's best interest, as of that moment it creates inertia and it makes it difficult to move the judge out of that position, which is why I include in temporary orders if it's not the case.

Speaker 1: 9:36

Let me put it this way If we're reaching an agreed temporary order and it's not the case that my client is really capable at the moment of having 50-50 physical custody or joint legal, then what I'm putting in the agreement is that it is the goal of the parties to reach 50-50 and joint legal if it's in the child's best interest. Because then I can come back and say judge, because of the conditions at the time we didn't enter this because my client was actually being more thoughtful of the children than of him or herself, but it was in that document that it was everyone's goal and in the child's best interest to get to parity in terms of physical and legal custody, but a lot of people don't put that in, which is why their hesitance. And to agreed orders, because it looks like that everyone thinks it should be unequal.

Speaker 2: 10:30

Does that also give some time in the process? If you set that up at the onset, that that's the plan, that then if something does go haywire along the way, then you have a chance to address that before the custody plan is totally locked in stone.

Speaker 1: 10:49

It's important too, because a lot of times if you get to a final hearing, let's say it's not agreed and you're having a trial and joint custody was never tried during the process. I know some judges will say, well, how do I know? Joint custody is not going to work. We never gave it a shot. So it's permitting an experiment in real time to see if joint custody is going to work, to see if the parenting schedule is going to work and then to deal with any hiccups that happen or to discover that it's just not going to work, no matter what resources we throw at the couple. So having that kind of agreed temporary order, if you can, or having a temporary order that permits that kind of experimentation to see what's going to be best for the family system, is important.

Speaker 2: 11:32

That's the best idea ever. I think so Once again, something I never get to say.

Speaker 1: 11:37

Yeah, that's the.

Speaker 2: 11:38

I'm glad to know all this exists in a perfect world.

Speaker 1: 11:41

Yep. So let's distinguish the divorce from the paternity as well. So if we have a husband and wife or husband and husband or wife and wife, if you have a married couple and a child was born or adopted into that marriage, then those two folks have equal legal and physical rights until the court says otherwise. If you have a paternity action, then the law is actually a little confusing right now in Oklahoma. So traditionally it's been the case that if you have a paternity action then we know for sure the mom's the mom for some pretty hopefully obvious reasons biologically imperative, but it's not always clear no offense to mom who the dad is. So the mother of an unwed mother who gives birth to a child at the time of birth has sole legal and physical custody of the child and the dad has no legal rights.

Speaker 2: 12:44

Right.

Speaker 1: 12:46

Now, traditionally it's been the case that once a father has gotten an order Assalishing him as the father, now he's equal to mom, unless there are certain situations that make it so that he shouldn't have joint legal or equal physical custody. Recently, a couple years ago, they made a change to the birth certificate statutes and the statute is related to acknowledgement of paternity forms, and so now it's a little fuzzy because in one portion of the statute it says that mom has sold legal and physical custody until a court determines otherwise through an adjudication of paternity. But a different part of the statute that's not in the family code is saying that once you have that acknowledgement of paternity, then you have equal rights as if you were married. Wow, and those two things have. Judges are doing different things with the different statutes. Makes sense. So that needs to be fixed and hopefully it will be soon.

Speaker 1: 13:55

So it's a little more complicated on the paternity side. But the process in Tulsa County is the same. You're still going to go to the Parenting Plain Conference, and if you're not in Tulsa County, it's still going to be the same. You still have temporary orders to go through and all of that. The only difference between a paternity and a divorce. Otherwise is that you're not dealing with property and debt distribution or alimony. You're just dealing with custody of a station in child support. That's what's the same in a divorce and a paternity.

Speaker 2: 14:23

Okay, wow, how do you keep all that in your head?

Speaker 1: 14:28

You don't seem to be reading it.

Speaker 2: 14:30

No, I didn't actually. No, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 1: 14:32

Just kidding, I'm not reading.

Speaker 2: 14:35

You would think he was, though how it just flows out.

Speaker 1: 14:38

I know I've given that same negation to clients for ever, discussing the differences if it's necessary, but that's the boring stuff. That's the statutes and the procedure and all of that. That's not even I mean it's important, it's critical because everyone has to go through it, but from our perspective a kid focused perspective that's not where it's at. So this is where we need Linda wisdom. So, linda, let's say that you have the opportunity to have the parents come into your office when the petition is filed. Let's say it's a divorce and the folks have been living together, both parents have been in the household, no domestic violence, so just sort of a standard married couple just getting divorced In just a couple minutes. What would be some of the best advice you could give them on how to go through the process, with the children being their focus?

Speaker 2: 15:37

That's the main thing I was going to say is it's about it's got to be about your children and thinking I would take them first into a place of explaining to me, describing who their children are.

Speaker 2: 15:52

You know, what ages are they, what their personalities are like and you know form an idea in my head of what I need to talk to them about. Based on those children's developmental stage and personality types, even sometimes whether they're a boy or a girl, I can make a difference sometimes in how they, what their birth order is, you know how they're just kind of explained to the parents how the child is probably receiving this change in their lives right off the bat, and that helps the parents because, I believe it or not, I have gotten to do a little bit of that. It's definitely not usual, but I love it when it happens. I even have had some people come into me before they've even either one filed for anything and just said this is where we are, we're in agreement, this is what we're going to do Now. What do we say to our children?

Speaker 2: 16:50

Oh that's wonderful, oh, it's phenomenal the few times that has happened, literally a few. But those parents I'm thinking about one particular family where that did happen and they had two little boys and they engaged the children. Even the kids were, instead of being very unhappy about the what all they were losing, they managed to find some excitement about what was to come and what they had to look forward to, which is really difficult to make that spin with kids. But they both bound up with a bedroom at each house that was quite inviting and interesting and kind of they got to start all over with some ideas of things that they really enjoyed and that were maybe more age appropriate at that stage for them than the bedroom they had had at the family home. And just sometimes it's something as small as that, just helping them to redefine their space at each house and something they have some control over, that does help a lot with those children.

Speaker 1: 18:04

Well, that's great. I wish everyone who was going through a divorce with kids would be reaching out for that kind of advice and if you all, if anyone listening is going through this process newly or know someone who is, and things that they could be helped by having this kind of information, get in touch with us at podcast at coparentacademycom, because we are considering doing a live session with folks. It would be a virtual, which we would do through our streaming platform, but it would be a live course where we talk about parents and talk with parents about how to get this process started in the right way for your kids. So that is it for us today. We are going to be having many podcasts as part of this creation process.

Speaker 1: 19:02

I anticipate that we'll probably have between 20 and 25 podcasts that go through everything that a parent needs to know as they're starting the divorce process and they have kids, or if they're going through a paternity action with kids how to keep it kid focused, how to look out for issues that your children may be having, how to take care of yourselves better, how to learn how to communicate during the process. It's just everything you can think of we're going to be covering here, so everything other than property and debt distribution, everything other than talking about alimony and things like that, just kid focused stuff. So we look forward to taking you on this journey with us and again, it's not just Oklahoma specific, it'll be for anybody who's going through this kind of process. So thank you for joining us today and we will talk to you soon.

Speaker 2: 19:56

Goodbye.