#9 - Interview With Author Teresa Harlow

Ron Gore  
So, Linda, we're in a fun place today.

Linda VanValkenburg  
Yes, we are in Chicago.

Ron Gore  
That's right. We're here for the eighth FCC conference. And for everyone who has no idea what that means is the American family conciliation courts conference, bunch of counselors and attorneys and judges and women all over the world. That's right. We've how many Aussies have we met? Several. I know, they sound so much nicer than we are. And Canadians. They don't sound as nice as Aussies. Well, I mean, they are nice, but . Alright. But we also have a very special guest. So we met an amazing person here at the conference. Her name is Teresa Harlow, and she is an author of an amazing book. That book is combative to collaborative the co parenting code. And we have her today on the podcast. Hi, Teresa. Hi, Ron. This is super cool. You are first nonfamily guest. This is amazing. Really. So we have my wife, Rebecca, who works with me. And she comes on to talk with us about Kanye West, and Kim Kardashian.

Teresa Harlow  
Oh, yes. And they  have quite the combative relationship.

Ron Gore  
They do. But they've been moving towards collaborative. Yes.

Teresa Harlow  
You know what, I wonder if they read my book I sent each of you did not? I did I send it straight to their homes? Easy to find, by the way, just so you know. But yeah, I sent each of them a book about two months ago. Good for you. That's fantastic. You know, I figured why not?

Linda VanValkenburg  
That could be why, co parenting word keeps showing up. It's right there. stuff they're talking about, you know,

Teresa Harlow  
I can only hope.

Linda VanValkenburg  
We'llcredit you with it.

Teresa Harlow  
Let's do that.

Ron Gore  
So, Linda, I know that we both have read her book. But you found a lot of really interesting stuff in there.

Linda VanValkenburg  
Yes, it was a it was a fun, easy read today, especially when we got bored at our booth and at the AFCC conference. And I felt like first of all, that I'd known you forever. And secondly, that we've been collaborating forever about things because so much of your the way you put things or the way you see things is like we see things too. 

Ron Gore  
And yeah. So to figure that out, can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself? Sure.

Teresa Harlow  
Well, you know, I, I'm a little unusual in this crowd. Because I'm not a divorce attorney or a psychologist. I actually lived the experience. I've been a co parent for 22 years. Our son was six years old when his father and I divorced. And he's now 28. And he will tell you he had a happy childhood.

Ron Gore  
 So yay. For us. That's definitely success. 

Teresa Harlow  
That's what you want to hear. I mean, it was so gratifying to know that it wasn't just me thinking we did a good a good job. And we had been told that so much along the way. And, you know, I also for the last 30 something years ago that I'm old enough to have spent 30 years anyway, but let's just go with it. I've been in corporate America leading large teams to do technology projects and program implementations. And, you know, it was never, usually at least, the technology you couldn't resolve problems with it wasn't the processes, you couldn't figure out how to manipulate to make them do whatever you need to do to get your job done. It was the relationships, it was the people. If you couldn't solve that, you're done.

Teresa Harlow  
So you know, as I explored this topic and began writing about it, I really came to realize I had been resolving conflicts with various relationships in my life using the same repeatable steps that apply no matter what kind of relationship you're dealing with any, any family member, your co parent, a co worker, or even just like a customer service person, you need to call about a complaint or tech support person that you need help from. And so I decided to kind of put it out there to help people to realize that there is a way forward even for a relationship that seems a loss. That seems like there's no hope in I can tell you firsthand, even after 10 years, you can improve any relationship that you're challenged by.

Linda VanValkenburg  
That is a really I'm so glad you said that because I see so many people that they're like 10 years in and we're still doing this, we're still doing all this high conflict stuff. And they think because it's been so long because they had this You know, fantasy at the onset that you know, oh, you know, as soon as we're actually technically divorced, and sometimes that does decrease a little bit after the financial stuff is kind of figured out, I think. But it's sometimes it doesn't. And it's crazy.

Teresa Harlow  
Yeah. And you know, I have a theory about that. Because I think what, I had a friend who had read an early version of combative to collaborative before I've finalized it. And he said, you know, what do you do? If you can't even get there to the point to consider all these wonderful methods for collaborating? We're still angry at each other, even after all this time, what do we do? And I said, that I have to solve, and I took it away. And I thought about it. And I was like, you know, do you have to solve that? Why are you working on that? Your romantic relationship has ended. That's not what your focus should be. Now, you, you're not benefiting anyone, by continuing to focus on something you've already decided not to pursue any longer. So instead, start a new relationship with this person, as your parent, team member. And focus on being a good parent, and enabling your teammate to be the best teammate for you, as a parent as well.

Ron Gore  
We love that you say that, because in our CoParent Academy, we have some core principles. And one of our core principles is that it's every parent's obligation to do what they can to create an environment in which their coop parent can be a better parent. Yep. And so that tracks exactly with what you're saying.

Teresa Harlow  
Well, and you know, it's easy to get frustrated by, let's say, you know, if you were in a relationship with this person, and they were irresponsible, or unorganized, or maybe they didn't contribute a lot to the home life and being that nurturer and organizer of the kid events. Now that you're separated, and you're living in two separate homes, you kind of maybe adopt an expectation, well, I'll do my part, they'll do their part. And you realize, well, that's not happening, what the heck? I mean, I'm doing my part, why are they so irresponsible? Hello, they have always been irresponsible, The divorce was never going to fix that. And so hanging on to an expectation like that is wasted energy for you. Instead, there are things you can do, you're not at a loss. Look, I get it, you're doing what you feel like is everything. But as a project manager for 30 plus years, I can tell you, there are ways to hold that person that's either you're responsible, or maybe unorganized, to a task. And the way to do that is to be specific with them. To follow up. You start maybe with the person that hasn't shown an ability to complete a task, something small. Let's say you're planning a birthday party for your child, you want them to contribute. So you give them something simple, like, why don't you buy the cake. But don't stop there. Don't just assume it's going to happen. Because guess what this person still is really someone who struggles with that type of thing. So put it on your calendar to follow up with them. If you're going to a store that, you know, it takes a few days ordering it ahead of time. Put it on your calendar, check in with them. Hey, did you put in the order for the cake? I'm sure you did. I just want to make sure. That "I'm sure you did" is really key here. Because you don't want them to assume like why you think I'm stupid. I didn't do it. And it starts to become this accusative thing. Now, we don't want that to happen. You're just wanting to contribute to the cause in a positive way, and encourage them and they may tell you they did it and then get off the phone and go do it right then and you know, it's like oops, I didn't do it, I better do it. Or they may have already done it and let you know, and if they do say "Yep, took care of it", be sure to acknowledge that, "appreciate you taking care of that for me", and you build on that small thing. And they prove that they can follow through on that. And the next time, maybe you ask for something a little bit more from them and see if they can take that on and complete it successfully, and continue to give them that positive feedback, they're going to feel like they contributed too, and that's going to make their self esteem go up. And the child will see that both parents are actively involved.

Linda VanValkenburg  
And the child doesn't say, "Oh, mom did 90% of my birthday, or 95%. And dad did 5%". And he just sees that dad contributed something. and I think that makes him feel good, too. Yeah, I think that goes with what what you say on page 29, about empathy. You know, it's, it's you you even watching you, as you're saying these words, I can tell that you have found empathy for your ex your co parent, in raising your son.

Teresa Harlow  
Yeah. So as it turns out, I was, I guess, reminded of the importance of empathy not that long ago. This is actually my second book on the topic of co parenting, the first one, titled "Happily Divorced. It's really what I would term and the industry of publishing would term a memoir. It's our story, how we chose specifically to co parent. It's not for everyone. Because we didn't have a high conflict, divorce. But I did want to share this story, because so many people had said, "Hey, you guys did a great job". And, you know, our son was thriving with our choices. And so I decided to share it, I thought it would be helpful to many people to see that it is possible. And so I started writing this book, and I asked my ex husband, if he would be interested in contributing. Yeah. I said, Look, I think this can be really helpful for people. And I don't want it to come across like, I did a great job. We did a great job. And then  them not hearing from you. Well, does she think that? And does he also think that or is it just her saying it? I wanted it to have more credibility than that. So I asked him, maybe you could, you know, write a foreword for it. Or maybe you want to put your spin on whatever the scenario was, and how you saw it, in each chapter. He said, Okay, well, I'll consider it. And he said, Why don't you send me as you write it, you know, what you've got, and I'll start doing that. And he's got a great sense of humor. And I thought, well, I'm pretty cerebral and serious. So I could use some levity to break that up a bit. And I know he's a good writer, just as an, you know, an intuitive thing for him. He's not trained writer or anything. And so, first chapter, he sends me his little take on it was clever. I was like, "this is perfect, his is going to be great". And second chapter, did it again, third chapter got a little slower response. And then the fourth chapter, heard nothing. And I was really busy in my corporate career at that point. And my son, actually, and I were talking on the phone, he said, "Hey, have you talked to dad?" And I'm like, "No, he said, he's been trying to email you and get a hold of you about the book". Like, oh, really, and I looked at my email, and I had all of these emails from him. "Theresa, please call me about this book. Teresa, please stop writing the book. Teresa, you must stop writing the book, or you're gonna have to rewrite the last chapter. It's no longer happily divorced". I'm like, Oh, my goodness. So yes, I wrote a book about co parenting. We were great friends up until I decided to write a book about it. And now we hate each other. Right? That just could not, doesn't fly. So I was like, Okay, I missed all these emails called him. We had some pretty dicey conversations. I said, look, let's take a timeout. I'm going to step back from it. I've written some other chapters, but I want to I want to just stop where we're at. And I need to think about what to do next. Because he basically was expressing that it felt unbalanced and it felt like everything was his fault, and that he was bad. He made out to be this bad guy. And I thought it was so careful not to do that. So I was very busy with some projects I was working on. And I just kind of set it aside for good six months. And then I thought, How am I going to do this? I'm not going to stop. This is too important to the world. People need this information, and this inspiration. And so I thought, okay, what can I do? And he had said, "it doesn't sound good when I read it". And I thought, Okay, what he meant by that was how it felt how it made him feel. So I thought, okay, empathy.

Teresa Harlow  
Let me read this. And really picture myself being him hearing the words out loud. And saying, what I want someone to say that about me what I want to read that about me? And how does that sound? How does that feel? And so I did that. And I'm reading along, I'm like, "Oh, it's fine. It's fine. I don't know what he's so upset about". And then I got to the chapter where he started getting triggered, apparently, Chapter Four in that first book, it may not even be there. Now, I might have even just trashed that whole chapter. And I started doing this weird thing. Like, I would read it, and I'm, ooh, I cringe. I'm like, "Ew, I don't like that, ew." And I'm like, Okay, this is what he's talking about. I get it. Okay, well, so then I was like, Well, wait a minute, it's got to be authentic. I can't just sanitize the whole thing. I can't make this like, "oh, we have no problems we were great. It's that easy. You can all do it". It's not like that. That's not reality. And we did have conflicts, we may not have been those very high conflict people. But look, our marriage ended for a reason. So I went back, I revised it tremendously. I rewrote chapters, I took out chapters, added things in and a lot of it was just exposing myself. Here's the things I did that contributed to, you know, maybe bad outcomes that bad choices I made as a co parent that didn't go as well as I thought they would or just didn't think about it. And so I was looking to strike that balance, right? I get it done. And I called him up and I said, "Hey, I'd really like you to take another run at this". And he says, "Well, okay. I said, Look, I've printed out a new manuscript, can I bring it to you", says, "Sure, bring it over". So I bring it to him, we have a good conversation about it. I expressed to him how I understood why he had the visceral reaction he did to the previous one, and what I had done to try to resolve that. And he said, like, as you read this, if there are still things that just seem out of bounds, unfair, grossly misrepresented, highlight them, and we will talk about them said, Okay, I'll do that. And so he says, Well, look, I'm really busy right now. So it's probably going to be like two weeks before I get a chance to look at it. I'm like, Okay, we'll take your time. But I knew better, because I knew he'd be too curious. And so I went home. And about six hours later, he sends me a text. And he says, Well, I'm to chapter nine, no highlights so far. And it was like, "Yay, we got past chapter four". So then he called me. And we had a very long conversation about it, he said, "I think we're on a much better path now". I said, "Well, how do you want to move forward? Because I'm going to finish the book". He says, "I don't think I really want to respond to each chapter. Because I feel like I'm reliving everything, and I'm not in a place to go there". I said, "Would you write the foreword for it?" He said, "Yes, I'll do that". So he wrote the foreword for it. And it's in the happily divorced book that is currently out.

Ron Gore  
Wow, that's a great story.

Teresa Harlow  
That was, it was just in my mind. I could just see myself rewriting those last lines. "And then in the end."

Ron Gore  
See, but you could have done happily divorced, and then have like a cliffhanger.

Teresa Harlow  
Yeah. That's right, "question?".

Linda VanValkenburg  
And then you had your son, I assume you had your son in write something as well, I don't know how old was he when he wrote this.

Teresa Harlow  
So he was probably see, he's 28. Now. That was probably about five years ago. So he was already 23 when he, when he contributed what he did to the first book. And then I, I took an excerpt from that first book, and incorporated it into "Combative to Collaborative".

Linda VanValkenburg  
And he says, Here, "I cannot remember a time when my life was specifically bad as a result of my parents divorce, I never felt the need to choose between one parent or the other". Can't believe any child is able to say that. "I never felt a competition between my parents for my affection", also unbelievable. "I never feared that my family was going to disappea"r. And what a concept because most kids feel like the family disappeared. And they're grieving the loss of a family system. A lot of times one or both of the parents has grieved the loss of the couple. But they don't even realize that the child or children are grieving the loss of the family.

Ron Gore  
Yeah, that struck me, Linda, and I took turns, we both read, and I underlined all over that section and wrote notes waslike wow, that was really interesting.

Teresa Harlow  
Yeah, um, the one of my motivations for this whole thing and how we chose to co parent was kind of based in the in, in a moment in time, it can be encapsulated in that, I guess. And when I was the one that asked, or not asked, but announced to my son's father that I wanted a divorce. And he says to me, "Teresa, you realize you're going to miss half of his life?". And while I had thought about all the things that might improve for me personally, and I knew there was going to be a rocky road ahead, not being in a marriage, you know, traditional family setting. And like, well, I can get through anything. But when he said that, I mean, look, it took me a couple years to get pregnant. He's my only biological child. I wasn't ready to give up half. And I thought, how on earth? Do I solve that? I'm a problem solver. Right. And so, you know, that's where I, and you know, Linda, you said something about that. And I forgot I even wrote that thing about I never felt they were in competition. He says for my affection, right? But let me tell you how competitive we were. Because my memory of us together is each of us. Trying to win every conversation,

Linda VanValkenburg  
Even when you were all together?

Teresa Harlow  
When we were still a couple? Oh, yeah. Like you couldn't put us on a team together with friends playing volleyball. Because, you know, if I didn't hit the ball, right? Or if he did something wrong, I was like, "that's your fault". And like, "what are you doing? I want to win this game". You know, it was like, we're both fiercely competitive. And you realize like, okay, winning, you need to redefine what winning means. And for me, winning was saving my family. Just because I gave up my marriage. The family continued on. My son still has a father. And I can still have a parenting team member. 

Teresa Harlow  
No, I know. I'm feel very gratified by that. You know, I always thought we did good, but when he actually wrote that I was just over the moon.

Ron Gore  
And that's one of those things that you just don't necessarily think that say unless it's true.

Teresa Harlow  
Right? I don't know. Look, my son is extremely authentic. I mean, he has no. He doesn't have a bone in his body that would allow him to be any other way. 

Ron Gore  
While having the you, I can understand that.

Teresa Harlow  
Yeah. What do they say "the nut doesn't fall far from the tree or something like that".

Ron Gore  
This is one of the things that we think is great about, you know, it just comes across.

Linda VanValkenburg  
Yeah, reading your book is very much like just talking to you. And that's how we hope our listeners always say yes to.

Teresa Harlow  
well, and I hope I hope the reader feels that way, whoever they are. And whether they're the person that one of the things in this book that I hope I've accomplished is to not only give some guidance to the person that maybe doesn't realize they're exhibiting high conflict behavior, easy for me to say, right. But that that's how it's being received. I give them strategies, right. But a friend of mine said to me, "you know, Teresa, that's great, but I don't think my ex wife would have ever picked up this book". She didn't even realize she had a problem, I would have picked up the book and wanted help. And that was before I finished Combative to Collaborative to, same guy, I think I told you about that I gave the preview copy to. And I said, "Well, okay, so I'm going to do something about that". And I augmented the content, to also consider if you're the person that's on the receiving end of this, you know, high conflict behavior and this animosity, don't think you're helpless, you can still improve the situation. "Oh, really? Oh, that sounds great. How do you do that?" Well, maybe you don't realize things that you put yourself in the line of fire for, that you don't have to, you know, a theoretical fire let's hope. And you could maybe, you know, avoid those types of triggers. or redirect those combative instances, those conversations to a more collaborative place where you can focus on what you want. You don't want to continue the conflict, who does that benefit? It just makes you sicker?

Linda VanValkenburg  
I was just thinking the word sick just makes you both sick, right? What do you think it's doing to your child, if it makes you sick?

Teresa Harlow  
Yeah. Instead, focus on being a good parent, and enabling your other parent to do the same.

Ron Gore  
That sounds like something we would say, sounds like something we do say.

Linda VanValkenburg  
And I love I love this part, here toward the end that it I've often when I work with marriage and family situations, and I realized that what is killing a couple is there expectations of each other. And you speak to that in here that it's, it's interesting when you release expectations placed on yourself and others, because sometimes those expectations that spouses have on each other, aren't really something that the spouse placed there. But it feels to you like maybe one statement, they said 20 years ago, you took it to heart and thought, Oh, I must always do blah, blah, blah. And so when you are able, as a divorced person to release those expectations, this is what's the burden of these expectations is removed, you'll often see the behaviors emerge that you wanted all along. Yeah. How wonderful is that? That you can eventually see that as the Co-parent of your child. Yeah. What a wonderful outcome.

Ron Gore  
Yeah, as long as you can not be bitter about it. How easy is it to be like, oh, man, this should have happened 10 years ago, maybe wouldn't be in this position.

Teresa Harlow  
Well, you know, and yeah, it is really easy to to feel regret and get caught up in that. But there's so much more in front of you. And parenting. I have news for those that think they only have to get through till they're 18, they're kids are 18 because, you know, I I'm a step parent as well. I'm 14 years into my relationship with my current partner and it took me 10 years to really make I'm inroads with his ex wife so that we could have a better relationship. We couldn't speak to each other. It got to the point where I really stepped back a lot from the activity activities that his kids were involved in, because I didn't want to be in the same scenario, either. I didn't want to be that person that made her anxious. I didn't want to put myself in her line of fire. And I grieved the failure of my family 2.0. And I thought, well, I can't do anything about it. I guess I just have to make it until they're 18 and, or off to college or whatever. And then I thought, no. Okay, this doesn't end there. Because eventually they're going to get married. Let's hope they have children. I'll want to be involved in those things. I have to solve this. Did I say it was Problem Solver earlier? I think I did. And I'm like, Oh, we got to find another way. And there was an opportunity. And I fell back to my main premise for resetting relationships, which is, you know, to treat others the way you want to be treated. And I did a small act of kindness for her. She wasn't able to make it to her son's first ever opportunity to be in the varsity volleyball game for his team in high school. He hadn't played high school sports until his senior year, because he had an earlier illness that prevented him from doing it. And so he got involved with the volleyball team, they had put them on JV. But then there was an opportunity, the coach said, Hey, you're gonna get in varsity this coming Friday. And we all were excited about, we're going to the game, we're going to take all the pictures and all that stuff. And I found out when I got there, his mom couldn't make it because she did a lot of travel for work. And I'm like, "where's Michelle?" And Bryan says to me, "Well, she couldn't make it because she is traveling this week, and there wasn't enough notice to reschedule". So I said, "Oh, that's terrible. So she's gonna miss this". And I thought to myself, you know, if I couldn't be here, or I couldn't be at my son's game, what would I want someone to do for me? And as I snap pictures, I thought, duh, how about I send her a couple of these. And so I sent her these pictures. And she shot me back a quick text. "Oh, thank you so much for sharing these, I really wanted to be there." And, uh, tell you what, that moment, coupled with a couple other small acts of kindness in both directions, changed everything. And that was, what, five years ago almost? And now, we recently went over last Christmas to the holiday of lights thing that's at the local zoo. All of us together. Her, me, Brian, their daughter who was in town. And we had a lovely time. And I would never dreamed that was a possibility 10 years in. So there's always hope. Don't ever give up. And even if the other person isn't playing along, keep doing it, eventually. They'll think they're, you know, they'll realize, maybe I'm being a jerk because they just keep showing me kindness. Most people, not everyone. But most people will begin to reciprocate what you give out to them.

Linda VanValkenburg  
And like you say, can start so small. Yeah. It could just be the smallest activity that you did for somebody. And those pay off sometimes more than a grand gesture that, then you're like, I'm all that, huh? Because I did this, you know, and then that's not coming across well.

Teresa Harlow  
Well, here's the here's the bottom line. Even if they don't reciprocate, you're no worse off for it.  You did the right thing. You put that kindness out there. You feel better about yourself and demonstrate the behavior you want your child to demonstrate and they see that. So there's really not a downside to it if you release your expectations.

Linda VanValkenburg  
Right again.

Ron Gore  
Yeah, and that's really amazing, I hesitate to ask about some of the other incidents in the book that you relay because we're on such a positive note. 

Linda VanValkenburg  
We probably don't have a whole lot more time. We could do several.

Teresa Harlow  
You can always do that.

Ron Gore  
You have so much in this book that I think is relevant and helpful for people. And it's a good refreshing perspective. Because, you know, if you look at a lot of the material that's out there, it's just all so negative. There, it's so easy to label people and to cast aspersions, but to lead with grace and humility, and putting the other person first, even in small ways that are easily reproducible, it's easy to do small things over and over again. Yeah, and create that track record. The kinds of things that you're saying here are really the path to improving relationships of all sorts, especially within the context of our work, co-parenting. It's really great.

Teresa Harlow  
Well, I really appreciate you saying that, Ron. And I say it all sounds like you know, maybe overwhelming. And how can somebody tackle it? I got two easy lessons. And they're nothing new. I am not breaking new ground here or inventing anything. When you hear them? Everyone listening to this is gonna go? Yeah, I think I learned that in kindergarten. First, if you got nothing nice to say?

Linda VanValkenburg  
Just don't say it.

Teresa Harlow  
Don't say anything. And number two, treat others the way you want to be treated. And look, there are people out there that say yeah, but don't you want to treat people the way they want to be treated? Sure, that's ideal. But sometimes we don't know them well enough, or we don't. We couldn't figure that out when we were with them. So you always know how you want to be treated. I know what I would like someone to say or not say to me, I know what I would want someone to do or not do in relation to me. So don't do it. Somebody else? Right? Start there.

Linda VanValkenburg  
It is very simple.

Ron Gore  
Yeah, and is in the benefit of doing it this the way that you're saying is, you know, we can't read their minds. But we can see their reactions to when we take those steps that you're describing. And in doing so we get lots of repetition, getting some feedback on how they appreciate or don't appreciate what we did for them which sort of builds this library that we can then pull from as we're considering what future actions we want to take or not take.

Teresa Harlow  
Yeah. When and I'll just say one other thing on that note. You know, I I've talked to a lot of parents on this. And they're like, "Yeah, but my, their reaction to what I say is on them, they own that". To some extent, yeah, sure. I get it, we don't have to respond to negativity when we get it. However, let's remember, this is your parent, teammate. Okay. What do you want them to do? Do you want them to be a good parent? Enable them to be a good parent. So you may have to go further to get them to play along. And think of that as as part of this brand game you're you're in? It's called Family Survival.

Ron Gore  
Or if you were thinking of it, as you know, any sort of business enterprise, it's a loss leader. Yeah, you know, you're making those tiny investments of your time and energy and maybe turning the other cheek more than you wish you had to. But over time, that investment will pay off typically. And even if it doesn't pay off in the sense that they're going to reciprocate your kindness, at very least, it helps you to find boundaries that you yourself can respect in the future. And avoid, as we were saying earlier, some of those minefields that maybe weren't obvious to initially that now you know, that's right.

Linda VanValkenburg  
We talk a lot about the transactional costs of keeping the conflict going.

Teresa Harlow  
 I mean, I've carried around burdensome, some anger with, you know, family members, and it's exhausting.

Ron Gore  
Absolutely.

Linda VanValkenburg  
I mean, this, this happens between siblings or adult parents and children.

Teresa Harlow  
Unburden yourself. You know?

Linda VanValkenburg  
And it keeps you stuck, where where you been? And hopefully, you don't want to go where you been, want to go further. 

Teresa Harlow  
Whole life in front of you.

Ron Gore  
Well, Teresa, we can't thank you enough for taking the time today. I know you're exhausted because I know what you've been doing all day. I know you've been super busy and we really appreciate it. The book again is Combative to Collaborative: The Co-Parenting Code by Teresa Harlow. We will have all the information in the show notes that you need to go and purchase this for yourself and for others. So thank you, Teresa, very much.

Teresa Harlow  
Thank you, Ron and Linda for having me. This was a lot of fun.

Ron Gore  
Good. I love the surprise in her voice. All right, bye bye.