Coparent Academy Podcast

Coparenting with Kim and Kanye

March 28, 2022 Linda VanValkenburg and Ron Gore
Coparent Academy Podcast
Coparenting with Kim and Kanye
Show Notes Transcript

Kim Kardashian is bringing the term "coparent" back. 

Never thought you had much in common with Kim Kardashian or Kanye West?  If you're a coparent, guess again. 

Thanks for listening!  If you have questions, comments, or concerns, please email us at podcast@coparentacademy.com.  

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or wherever you listen.  

Ron Gore:

I'm pretty excited about what we're going to talk about today. So not that. Not that we know anything about Kim Kardashian and Kanye West, we don't have any inside information. We're not personal friends, I have no like, tap on their phone. But just based on what we've seen from social media, because I know you're a big follower of all of this...

Linda VanValkenburg:

Oh, sure!

Ron Gore:

on social media, and what we've read on the interwebs, and things like that, we decided it would be kind of fun to bring in Rebecca, who is my wife, and also our producer, when things go, Well, if we notice episodes that are poorly done, it's because I was attempting to do it on my own. But she also happens to be our in house expert on the social media buzz related to Kim and Kanye... And it all pertains to co parenting at the moment.

Linda VanValkenburg:

Boy, does it ever!

Ron Gore:

so we thought, why not jump on the trend? So I'd like to introduce Rebecca. Hey, Rebecca.

Rebecca Gore:

Hi, Guys!

Ron Gore:

This is her first time joining us on the microphone. I tried to get her on camera with us. But we'll save that for a different day.

Rebecca Gore:

No, thank you So... a different day...possibly.... but probably not.

Ron Gore:

So in the meantime, what we can agree on...

Linda VanValkenburg:

She's the cute part of this, just sayin...

Ron Gore:

She is! So, we're gonna talk about Kim and Kanye. To do that we need to know what the deal is. And again, you know, disclaimer or alert, we have no real knowledge of anything accurate. We're all basing this off of what we've seen in social media and on the internet. And it all could be completely false.

Linda VanValkenburg:

So it's about like one of our Reddit things we've been doing.

Ron Gore:

exactly right. Rebecca, what in the world is going on with Kim and Kanye?

Rebecca Gore:

A lot? Yeah, they've got a lot going on. And it kind of made me think the other day when I was reading an article, which I just for some reason cannot stop reading about them was that she actually mentioned co parenting. And so we were sitting there drinking coffee. And I was like, this is really interesting. She's actually saying the word co parenting. And unfortunately, their battles are really, really public, although, like, they do mirror a lot of everyday problems that we all have when things get a little ugly, with a separation or divorce, especially when there are children involved.

Ron Gore:

Yeah, but they have so much more going on.

Rebecca Gore:

Yeah...I think they're like a good example of like, anything magnified by 100. Like, yes, so and they just have an audience, you know, that was obsessed with watching them and watching the whatever is going on the train wreck. So it does tell us that, you know, it doesn't seem to matter where you live in the world, or what your socio economic status is or anything. It's, it's, I remember being on an island one time in, in talking to someone that worked there about what I do. And she was like, oh, we need you here, you need to move here. And I went, this is absolutely paradise. Why would anybody have a problem they need to talk to a therapist about and she said, well, especially, you know, family and marital stuff. She said, if you're married, if you've got kids, you have issues to talk to a therapist about. You know, it's it's that sometimes we think, Oh, they're so rich, or they're so famous that they don't have any problems. But then, like you said too they've got an audience built in, watching every move they make.And I think they're surrounded to by people that are constantly accommodating them. And so, you know, when you get into a situation where you really don't have a lot of control, and you really are at the mercy of the court or the other party, it probably zaps them on some level that we can't even understand.

Ron Gore:

Well, here's where I want to break in and say, What is going on though, like, give us the deeds.

Linda VanValkenburg:

I don't know how long they've been separated...

Rebecca Gore:

It is a hot topic, let's talk about what's going on. So from what I understand, like being the pop culture junkie that I am, is that Kim and Kanye have been married for several years, I want to say something less than 10 years maybe something like that. And, you know, he's kind of like helped her morph into like, they become this like really interesting styled family that people are becoming obsessed with their children are named, kind of exotic names, and interesting all that. And so he's sort of went off a little bit last year by running for president and I think, from what I understand, that may have started the kind of separation in Kim's eyes from what I've read and like seeing on Keeping Up With The Kardashians, which is, you know, a great show. And so I think she, you know, because they're a very controlled family, the Kardashians is as much as they share They're also very calculated and what they share and they're, you know, so I think the family was kind of like, wow, we can't trust him. You know, we don't know what he's gonna say.

Ron Gore:

So....a loose cannon?

Rebecca Gore:

Yeah... He had made a comment that I don't know that I'm should mention about their daughter, their first daughter, when Kim was pregnant with her. He had said something in a press conference about how they considered not having her and I think it humiliated Kim. So, and then that was a big red flag for the family that like, Okay, we don't know what he's gonna say, that's not going to be okay in our family. So and

Linda VanValkenburg:

...that would be the worst thing. You know, me. I'm always thinking, Oh, the child-- that would be the worst thing that could possibly ever be out there.

Rebecca Gore:

Oh, absolutely! Whether it's true or not, I mean, it's highly inappropriate!

Linda VanValkenburg:

For the child to ever think that or know that was said by a parent!

Rebecca Gore:

Yeah, she's, I mean, she's like seven or eight or something. I mean, so she's certainly, you know...

Linda VanValkenburg:

Old enough to look things up....

Rebecca Gore:

no doubt. I mean, she, I'm sure she has a Tik Tok account. I'm sure she knows what's going on.

Ron Gore:

Well, and that points out how perfect these folks have to be, you know, if we're thinking about trying to maintain a sanitized version of life for your child as long as possible. That's really hard to do when your parents are Kim and Kanye, and everything they say gets blasted everywhere, and it's not going away anytime soon. And you have to be real careful. And Kanye.... I don't think of careful when I think of Kanye.

Rebecca Gore:

No, I don't. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. I mean, he's definitely someone who in I think the controlled environment, he can be kind of like the eccentric artist, and he's so interesting. And you could have little mess ups and slip ups and like, oh, that's part of his sort of mystique, but when it there's a line those crossed I think in every family whether you're famous or not, where, you know, it's like, Oh, this isn't cute. This isn't okay. And we also now can't We can't control this situation. So I think that's kind of how it started. I'm sure there was way more going on that we don't know about and then they have sort of separated and instead of you know separating and like most Hollywood couples when they separate You don't really hear about it except like oh, you know, we love each other. We're just letting you how the coparenting...uncoupling...

Linda VanValkenburg:

I still love that one!

Rebecca Gore:

... you know, just like the most fuzzy warm like happiest divorce that's ever happened. Kanye is taking this like to the craziness like literally doing like movie poster styles of him and Kim Kardashian boyfriend, like head to head like Marvel Marvel characters,

Ron Gore:

or like a fight poster--boxing.../ exactly... Yeah, exactly. So, he's Taylor Swift at the Grammys unhinged at the moment,

Rebecca Gore:

he keeps posting things on Instagram than deleting them. And so I'm sure the news media's are just like screenshotting like crazy anytime he posts anything. But when this first started a few weeks ago, he was accusing Kim of using their oldest daughter to, you know, do a Tik Tok account. And that he felt was inappropriate. And so with that was kind of what made me think about this is like, oh, okay, we have issues like, you know, parents in our office that like, one parents like, oh, I don't feel like my child's ready. So for that kind of social media. And instead of, you know, us having that problem in like, you know, somewhere, you know, Oklahoma or Virginia or wherever, this is, like on Instagram with everybody has a billion followers. So, I mean, it's just an interesting...

Linda VanValkenburg:

It is a great example of they do have a lot of the same issues is just seems to be magnified. Because yes, I see that a lot in terms of either what the parent has posted somewhere, and whether, you know, it came up recently at a case where the where the parent was doing some very interesting Tik Toks that were inappropriate, and then wanted to share her Tik Toks with her child in session in a in a therapeutic visitation session.

Ron Gore:

Did the word narcissist appear anywhere in the Tik Toks?

Linda VanValkenburg:

You know, I was like, what part of this Do you not understand? It's not appropriate for your child ever to see, much less Why would you want to share it with the first time you've seen your child in two years? So, speaking of that-- does he have a mental health diagnosis?

Rebecca Gore:

So it is, obviously this is just from what we've read, and what we know. But I've actually heard interviews with him as well. I listened to a really lengthy interview with him not too long ago, which I actually found fascinating. It was before the divorce, separation kind of thing. And he was talking about his collapse of the different businesses and it was a really long conversation. And he did address in the interview that he has bipolar, and that he he was actually talking about his medication and how he is a very creative person. And he also is, it was a combination of it, it dulling his creativity, and messing with his body that he didn't like... he felt he was saying that he had a hard time, you know, keeping weight off and all that when he was on whatever kind of medication he was on.

Linda VanValkenburg:

So he was on in and off of it?

Rebecca Gore:

he talked about how he prefers to be off of it. And so I'm, I'm purely speculating, but I'm guessing if maybe he is maybe not taking the medication, I don't really know.

Ron Gore:

Well, that's the, that's the number one category of folks in our practices who get off their medication

Linda VanValkenburg:

Totally! that is also very similar to Oklahoma!

Ron Gore:

Right--Because you start to feel good, you don't want to be on your medication, and then it just goes crazy. And that's what my mother was, my mother was bipolar.

Linda VanValkenburg:

So you think you don't need the medication, because you're doing just fine. And if you don't realize that, it's a medication that is helping you --or they start to, they start to self medicate with other things. And here in Oklahoma, the two I hear the most about the self medicating is marijuana. First of all, now they can do that with a prescription in quotes, and then alcohol. And interestingly enough tequila more often than anything else.

Ron Gore:

Tequilla is not my friend!

Rebecca Gore:

Do you know why though, because tequila, what I understand is the only alcohol that is an upper like it actually makes you feel good. Apparently, whatever is in tequila, at least temporarily. Obviously, this is not a long term solution, but it is an alcohol that is an upper it doesn't depress it makes you more relaxed, more how?

Linda VanValkenburg:

Always I wondered about that? Because it does come up a lot, because I get nosy about those things. So yes, it's it's very, it's very normal, that they don't stay on their meds. And then we will hear you and I in our different professions will hear from the CO parent that oh, he or she must be off their meds again, because it is a quick difference.

Rebecca Gore:

it's obvious to the other folks around

Linda VanValkenburg:

Yes, just like in the in the news or on his posts, it's very, usually more evident in ours are only in terms of the texts or the emails that they're getting from the other parent,

Ron Gore:

right. And it creates a really intractable problem for the court too because you want to tell the person to stay on their meds, they're fine, especially with bipolar they can be fine when they're on their meds,. And it's very manageable. But they're going to come off very often folks will come off their medications and at unpredictable times, And it can take a long time to get back in front of a court. And sometimes it it bubbles, you have the suspicion that they're off because of their communications. But it doesn't reach a crisis inflection point that would give you enough to go into the court on an emergency order, which should be immediate. So you wind up having to go through your parenting coordinator go through the guardian ad litem, and that process takes time. And in the meantime, you're just sitting there as the parent who doesn't have that particular problem. And you're thinking, when is this going to boil over?

Linda VanValkenburg:

and you can even see the many many many coparents have told me that they they can see the pattern, the intervals that the person whether they're rapid cycling with their bipolar or is it seasonal or, you know, even a certain holiday or whatever can trigger it.

Rebecca Gore:

Well, and I think I'm again guessing, but I think in Kanye's case, he associates his or he was talking about his medication and when he would potentially go off of it and on it, whenever he's doing something that he feels requires a lot of his creativity, he tends to stop his medication or to slow it down, and he's putting out Donda right now, which drops, I believe on the 22nd of this month. And so he's been doing all of these like really actually beautiful before before his Instagram feed became about his family. It was beautiful. He would. In fact, I tuned in a couple times on Sunday afternoon, you never knew exactly what time but he would broadcast a live sort of dress rehearsal of Donda, which is this gorgeous, like, I think they're all black, I think Black choir and they're all wearing black. And they're all it's they're standing in this warehouse that he has procured for this purpose, I guess. And the lights coming in, in this beautiful way. And he's so he's both kind of performing. He's giving these sort of pre concerts. And so I think he's really in a creative space right now. And so I can imagine even if he wasn't going through this family stuff, he would probably want to be backing off of his medication.

Ron Gore:

For context. It's February 2022. Yes. Oh, yes. We're talking about this so that when we say this month That's when people know. And you know, you can understand that he wants to have that creative space free of the medication. And I think with proper communication in advance, you can you could make that work. If everyone were on the same page, and we're communicating in advance and we're all vulnerable with each other about their concerns, and, and how to properly overall manage that situation, you would say, Kanye, we get it, like you are a genius, you produce amazing art that millions and millions of people appreciate, we don't want to take that away from you, or from all the people who appreciate your work. What we need to do is to allow you to be off that medication, if that's what's necessary. If we can't change the dosage or something else, if it really is necessary for you to be off the medication. Let's do that in a way where you're not going to be impacting the children, you're not going to be creating the social media imprint that's harmful to everybody. And that we can then get you back onto the medication in a way that is helpful for you at a time when you're ready to be back on it. And we have to have whatever safeguards in place are necessary to make that happen. Because I personally don't think that the mental health of his children is a worthy sacrifice to his art.

Linda VanValkenburg:

Right. And that is where you get into the emergency guidelines, you know, is it of any kind of irreparable harm to the child you know, that is such a hard thing to to figure out. I had a bipolar client one time that told me it was like having a it's like they were a two story house with an attic and a basement. And they were they're taking their medication. It's like, it reduces all that to a one story.

Ron Gore:

One story house is really interesting,

Linda VanValkenburg:

they have so much of who they really are, and especially an ultra, creative person to just that flat, one story ranch style house, you know, and when they've got so much more to offer. And so I have all kinds of empathy for someone who has that happen to them.

Rebecca Gore:

Well, and I think in Kanye's case, too like harkening back to that interview that I listened to it was like, I didn't remember what, what it was on. But it was really fascinating. He talked about how being with his family, like being with Kim and being with his kids really helped him keep inspired to stay on his medication, because he wanted to be the best for them. And I think that having in, in any situation where you have a couple that are, you know, in this situation, you know, if you kind of lose your inspiration for staying healthy, and you feel the added pressure of all the anxiety and everything that's going on, I mean, you know, he has that thing missing now, so you know, his family in his mind is gone, you know, and or he's losing them. So he's missing that sort of inspiration to stay healthy. And instead he's, you know, in fight mode, which you probably, you know, guess maybe even feels okay, I need to be really not clouded by anything right now I need to have all of my things going through my head right now that'll, you know, help potentially help me or make the right decisions or whatever I know. But he's lost that sort of inspiration to keep himself in check and stay healthy.

Linda VanValkenburg:

And then the word you use manage, you know, good luck was anybody who's tasked with that job of managing all his...

Rebecca Gore:

well, and he's also according in the Instagram things. He's like, longtime collaborators, he's, you know, saying Sayonara to like him, he's really distraught, destroying his surroundings at the moment, which is really, really sad to watch.

Linda VanValkenburg:

but that's the descent into the basement, when, and they they're usually okay with bringing things up out of the depressed phase. And so that's why they will take certain things like the tequilla Like you said, they will, that will not depress them further. But will give them that lift that they're wanting if their form of bipolar is to fall into depression.

Rebecca Gore:

I wonder with you guys too. The reason that it made me kind of think about it the other day and talk to Ron, when I was reading the article was, I wonder if you know, Kim, and Kanye, or someone that was going through a very similar situation, maybe not on social media stand, but how would you guide the situation if you if you guys had the opportunity? Like what would you? What would you suggest?

Ron Gore:

so I think it all depends on do we have a person who is like a Kanye because to me, that's the real outlier. If someone truly is a creative genius, and there is a great benefit to them being creative, and there is a true limitation on their creativity from this medication... And if it's the case that if they're temporarily off of it, they can produce great works, that's good for society and can provide monetarily for the children, then I think there's the temptation to try to figure out something out of the box to work with that unique situation. But if it's not that situation, if it's just a person who was living their life has a normal job, has the bipolar then and is going off medication, then I think if I'm the judge, I'm going to say, your job isn't worth the damage you're going to do to your child. And if you're not on your medication, you're not seeing your child.

Linda VanValkenburg:

And I've even seen a few times where they've, they've tasked the-- I've seen some marital situations where the the spouse is the one that has to actually administer the medication every day, to make sure that they stay on their meds for either bipolar or schizophrenia, and especially for schizophrenia. And that is a horrible place to put the spouse even cause the, the person that needs it might be fighting them too, and being really awful to them about taking it. But there have actually been other times when the parents are or the the adults are separated when someone else in the situation has been tasked with making sure they take their medication on a daily basis.

Ron Gore:

And if you've got that person, I think that's great. Otherwise, you have to create a buffer zone of time, where you can have that person seeing a professional for a sufficient period of time to feel like they have gotten back into the rhythm of taking their medication. And once they've done that, then they can start their visitation again and or you have supervised visits and monitored visits, where the supervisor just sort of drops in and checks on things. But that's, you know, that's the scary situation. Mental health is one of the scarier situations, but it's also an area that's eminently manageable, so long as you have the person cooperating and compliant with their medications. And their treatment plan.

Linda VanValkenburg:

But getting their cooperation is so difficult and maintaining it. And typically they do forecast the fact that they're off of it, though they don't realize they are but they do forecast that to their to their CO parent in their writings, or in what they say, I know, I've been a PC in one of those cases where every time they were on such a cycle that every time the co parent received something like that, and I got to where I could tell to in the writing that that's where we were again, and we would pull back on. And the judge gave to PC the power to do that, you know,

Ron Gore:

and I've seen that with alcoholic clients to run silverlink... And silverlink is a device that you can use, it works with your phone where you can breathe into it. And it'll take blood alcohol level, similar to something that you would get on the roadside from a police officer. And for some of this clients, I would look at the server Link report. And that's how I'd find out that they were drinking, sometimes I would receive communications from them. And then I would say, Oh, I know what the server Link is gonna say. So I can look at it from both directions. Yeah, I had one too, that the parents at one point quite a few years before I saw them as a PC had done a lot of drugs together. And for some reason, I guess the father was the the first contact mom's phone, but she never did quite figure that out. But every time she would do a drug buy, for some reason, she would butt dial him. And so he would text me usually on the weekend and say, okay, she did it again, this is what she bought. And so I could just send her a thing saying go for a drug test immediately. If you don't go within a certain number of hours, then you aren't seeing your child again for a while. And so it those kinds of things can be written into PC orders to keep it from going back in front of the judge constantly, like you said, filing an ECO or something.

Rebecca Gore:

I think one of the things that makes me You know, wonder what you guys would say about that particular situation has to do with the kids because like I say, you know, you have a co parent in a situation that, you know, I mean, clearly you can see it worldwide, but you know, personally that they have a hard time kind of behaving in a certain way. They kind of just kind of do whatever they're going to do. And they're not able to regulate themselves very well. And so you know, you have your four kids that you You know, he wants to see and you know, may have every right to see, you know, how, how was the other parent? Do you deal with that, when you're not able to control what's going on, obviously, when you're not with them and the other spouse is really erratic, and, you know, potentially will say things to them that aren't true or, you know, try to get them to be on their side, just really highly inappropriate communication. So how would you? You know, deal with that?

Linda VanValkenburg:

yeah, what if they get ultra depressed? And you don't realize it?,

Rebecca Gore:

I mean, I didn't really want to go there. But I mean, they actually, you know, according to another story that I read, you know, he wanted to visit the kids, and he actually bought a house across the street from her new house, or not her new house, but the house that they've shared together. And, and also, you know, they always have bodyguards anyways, and, you know, he was accusing her one day of basically having a her own regulated, like supervised visitation, you know, when he was playing with the kids, he wanted to be by himself with them. And she was like, Well, you know, these bodyguards need to be here. And he was saying, you know, that's, you know, her trying to control what's going on in my situation?

Ron Gore:

Well, she is controlling it. And in this case, it sounds protective. Absolutely. In fact, if I'm, you know, DHS, or CPS or whatever is called where you are. And I find out that she's allowing him in his current state to see the children unsupervised. I would have great concerns about that. So I think she's, if he is really acting in that way, and he really is unpredictable in his behavior and erratic at the moment. She has every obligation, not just right, she has every obligation to suspend, curtail, supervise visits, until that can get under control. And she's actually doing him a kindness by permitting him to have that visitation and her provide the supervision because if I were her attorney, I would probably say, if he really is erratic, then we need to collect these things he's doing on social media, these things that he's saying we need to put it in an emergency custody application and get it filed. Otherwise, if he were to be with the children and injure one of them, she would be at risk of having been found to have neglected them. And both of them could lose the children.

Linda VanValkenburg:

And I'm thinking the children are so used to the bodyguards around and having a lot of people around, you know, people with cameras or whatever, that they don't really notice that they're just focused on, they get to see daddy.. And, and I know a lot of your clients and mine would probably love to have the finances to have a bodyguard.

Ron Gore:

But I mean, that question that you posed, Rebecca is at the heart of so much of what we have to work with.

Rebecca Gore:

Yeah. When one when one of the CO parents is, you know, you know, they're not both taking your course, you know, so one of them is not necessarily the easiest to deal with, you know, how do you still do a great job as a co parent, respect your respect the other co parent, and also, you know, take care of yourself and your children?

Ron Gore:

Well, there is something called the Learn at hand formula, which relates to tort law. But you take, and I'm going to mistake it because I haven't taken tort law since law school, and I haven't done any tort cases ever. So I'll say that first. But you look at the amount of harm that you think is going to happen. That's the risk of harm. And then you need to take the amount of precaution that is reasonable, given that risk of harm. So in this case, when you have someone who's very erratic and has the money to travel anywhere in the world at a moment's notice on a private plane, then there's a high risk of harm for if he is truly off the rails for injuring or abduction of the children. when you have something that's that high of a risk of harm, then the reasonable precaution is going to be clamping down like a vice, if the risk of harm is that they may say something inappropriate about their new girlfriend to the child, then the reasonable precaution is not to interfere with the visitation. It's to communicate with the person and to say, please don't do this. And if you find out later, you file a contempt if there's an order sufficient to do that, or you talk to the parenting coordinator or the guardian ad litem. So the answer really is you got to take a look at the risk of harm to determine what precaution is reasonable under all the circumstances and it just varies...

Linda VanValkenburg:

Right, and in that case, there's such a divide between talking about something inappropriately and abduction, right? I mean, there's just there's, there's, it's kind of like, so some of our conflict resolution stuff, you know where it's like, okay, you really do have to look at how much money do you want to spend to combat that, you know, as people that don't have unlimited funds that we usually work with?

Rebecca Gore:

Yeah. And in his case, I mean, again, just looking at his Instagram, it's almost like he's entering a phase of like paranoia, you know, you know, accusing different people of like, not being loyal to him, and like, you know, making all these sort of accusations and dividing clear sides where maybe there really isn't quite a straight line or, you know, so that's another area where it just I would imagine makes the other the other coparent...

Linda VanValkenburg:

It happens a lot with mania as well

Rebecca Gore:

I was wondering if that has some maybe correlation

Linda VanValkenburg:

And/or with the self medication with either something like meth or cocaine

Rebecca Gore:

Yeah, and I don't know that there's a lot that he's out doing any substances other than just, you know, high on the craziness of what's going on in his life,

Ron Gore:

or he's or he's right. Maybe, maybe there is a conspiracy against him to do these things

Rebecca Gore:

You're always like, well, maybe I don't know. It's really difficult. I mean, I can only imagine the legal team situation that's going on both sides with attorneys working 24 hours a day, I'm sure

Ron Gore:

The churn on that case is...

Rebecca Gore:

they're gonna probably need their own court to just reserve

Ron Gore:

those attorneys are going to be able to hold court on their own yacht. Sometimes when I have clients who are just getting a little overboard in terms of what they want to do. I'll say, well, Rebecca, Rebekah does want me to put a pool in the backyard so keep on doing so and you can fund that pool and then they laugh. They like no tell Rebecca she's not getting a plan.

Rebecca Gore:

I know I'm not but I would really like one.

Ron Gore:

Well, I think that wraps up this conversation. There's gonna be tons more to talk about with Kanye. And if y'all liked this type of conversation, let us know. And if there are other celebrity news related to co parenting that you want us to get into that we can get Rebecca looking into? Let us know that too. And we will and we'll probably do it even if you don't let us know, because I had so much fun talking with Rebecca. So thank you. And again, remember, we have no idea about anything related to Kanye or Kim. All we know is what's going on in the media and everything we said could have been incorrect. And probably was to some degree,

Linda VanValkenburg:

but it's fascinating to find out how much we may have in common with them with our own stuff we work with

Rebecca Gore:

I mean, you know, we kind of feel like these people are just like in a whole different planet sometimes but I mean, it's pretty their problems are pretty common to what we have

Linda VanValkenburg:

Exactly!