#1 - Pixie Haircut

Ron Gore: 0:24

So the one we're about to do, this Reddit thread that we're about to talk about, has some spicy language in it. And so I'm real tempted to ask you to read the whole thing, but we're not gonna do that.

Linda VanValkenburg: 0:38

I don't remember the spicy language.

Ron Gore: 0:39

There's some spice and well, maybe your standards for spicy are different than mine. You've been holding back on me. Well,

Linda VanValkenburg: 0:46

are we talking about a haircut?

Ron Gore: 0:48

We are talking about? That one! Well, so the situation in this one is that there is a nine year old girl whose parents are divorced. And she wants to get a short, pixie style haircut. And her dad's not having it. So this one, I think struck a chord with you, when you read it, what are your thoughts? What are you thinking about it?

Linda VanValkenburg: 1:13

Well, it's just been such a normal thing in my world for many years that they, and typically, it's I hate to sound sexist here anyway. But typically, it's the fathers that want their daughters to have pretty long hair. And they don't want her to look like a boy. And this has been going on for a long time before we have what we have currently with girls very much wanting to look like a boy. And if they are transitioning, especially and so. But I've been hearing that for fathers for many years, and they do not want their girl to have short hair and they do not want. Typically, whatever Mother wants the girl to have as a haircut, they want just the opposite. So it is it is a very big problem as PC or as a therapist working with them. The kids will tell me quite often what they want to do with their hair that one or both of their parents are not agreeing on.

Ron Gore: 2:17

Well, in my my thought about kids, is that they are always without power And one of the few things that a child can sometimes have some control over is what their hair looks like.

Linda VanValkenburg: 2:32

I've been telling parents that for many years, right, before any thing very interesting was happening with hair, it was definitely you know, even if they wanted to color it or whatever. Remember a girl I had that, that wanted to color her hair blue and purple as a middle school student, and she had absolutely perfect grades. I said, I am much more interested in her grades than I am the color of her hair. So...

Ron Gore: 3:00

yeah, blue and purple. Why not? My kid had hair that was red at one point and just different stuff. And to me, it's like a renewable resource of encouraging a child to self Express, right? The hair typically is gonna grow back, it's not going to take that long. You can do all sorts of different things with it. And you know. I think back to when I did have hair, and just enjoying having hair. I know it's hard to believe, but I at one time had really nice hair up until probably my senior year of high school. And it started disappearing. I remember in the winter, getting out I would walk to school. And it was like maybe four blocks. And I would purposefully get my hair as wet as possible before to school to see if it would freeze before I got there. Because you know, kids aren't the brightest. But in the area of their hair. My hair may have been frozen, but it was the 80s it was perfectly feathered. It looked beautiful. And so my basic thought is

Linda VanValkenburg: 4:16

I loved those feathered hairstyles for boys.

Ron Gore: 4:18

Yes. So this little girl, why shouldn't she have the haircut that she wants to have? And, you know, Dad, I don't think is taking care of it. Right? Is dad brushing it out is dad doing all the stuff that you have to do. But I'm just assuming are things because I'm a guy and I don't do those things,

Linda VanValkenburg: 4:41

And I realized that sometimes to give him the benefit of the doubt like, you know, she doesn't want just a short hairstyle. She likes maybe one side pretty short or buzzed, which is the thing now too. And it's, it's so frequent that you know, whatever. Hairstyle music, clothing style, you know that that the children or especially an adolescent she's not quite there yet. I think she's nine, wants, the parent thinks is ridiculous. like my parents didn't like the Beatles one little bit and thought their hair was way too long.

Ron Gore: 5:21

Well, they were so subversive.

Linda VanValkenburg: 5:22

Yes exactly! It's such such lyrics. And so they, you know, never let me buy a Beatles album, you know, but it was the thing, right then... But they, I would say the, you know, parents frequently look at a hairstyle like that and say, Oh, you'll be teased, you'll be made fun of you'll, your your self esteem will suffer, etc, when that's really probably not the case, because they're not nearly the only one like that. That's why they want it.

Ron Gore: 5:55

Right, exactly. Right. And let's say that, let's say that they would suffer. Let's say this little girl would get her pixie haircut that she wanted to get exactly the way she wanted it. She went to school and girl, people made fun of her for it. That itself is valuable.

Linda VanValkenburg: 6:14

Well, and that itself is the only consequence needed or punishment, his dad said, you know, mother says that Dad told her in front of mother if she shaved her head halfway or got a haircut like that, that he would shave her whole head as punishment. So you know, a lot of those kinds of decisions as children, it has a built in logical and natural consequence.

Ron Gore: 6:38

Well, and yeah, so let's dig into that portion. So nine year old wanting to get this haircut, mom knew that dad didn't. I'm not shocked by reading all of this, that girl didn't go to dad, right? to Ask about the haircut. So

Linda VanValkenburg: 6:54

They'll pretty much ask the one they think is likely to allow it

Ron Gore: 6:58

Right! So she had asked her mom, and she got an ally and her mom to be able to get this haircut. And they talk about it at a visitation exchange. Now, Linda, we have a whole mini course. on visitation exchanges in our Parent Academy where we talk about what you should and shouldn't do, how they should go. And this is not how they should go. So in this case, at a visitation exchange, they're getting into this argument in front of the child about this haircut now, couple things with it, and then I want you to to chip in on it. This should not be a conversation for a visitation exchange, I don't think Mom is shocked to know the dad's not going to be all about this haircut. So this conversation should have happened without the child around, Not at a visitation exchange, definitely not in front of the child, not at a time where dad wouldn't have a chance to think about it and collect himself if he has some anger management issues. So this was set up for failure.

Linda VanValkenburg: 8:04

So it does beg the Question, why did we go there? You know,

Ron Gore: 8:07

why did

Linda VanValkenburg: 8:08

Why did the mother go there in front of the child to bring it up?

Ron Gore: 8:10

Yeah. So little bit of a tinfoil hat on me at the moment. But I think she knew exactly what was going to happen, probably. And so and what is the little girl think? So one of the things apparently the dad said was that people who get short hair like that, he said, just want to get attention, and that they're idiots. And they're, they're gonna get negative attention and then go home and cry about it in their safe spaces. So if he really did say those things, he took his daughter who was being vulnerable, about how she wanted to look and how she wanted to, to feel more cool, as well. So do you want that haircut, and he told her that she's stupid. And her safe space when really. And as I read that, I just think to myself, That's a guy who has low self esteem, and is so wrapped up in how other people think of him that he's externalizing his fear of people making fun of him and transplanting it onto this, this version of what's going to happen to his daughter.

Linda VanValkenburg: 9:18

Well, and I've had parents even go further and say, I don't want to be seen with that child with that hair cut or that outfit

Ron Gore: 9:30

I've heard that too. Which always takes me aback. Yes. Because under what circumstance would you ever be essentially abandoning your child? I mean, that's what that is. If you're not cool enough, I don't want to be with you. And so from the girl's perspective, she's nine years old, her dad says this to her, what's her emotional takeaway?

Linda VanValkenburg: 9:52

Right? Well, and what will it do to her? The next time there's something that comes up which, once again, she's only nine. Imagine all the issues that will come up if she's an adolescent, that she wants to do and is not allowed to do? Or that her her father will not even entertain the idea or she won't ask him

Ron Gore: 10:15

so but I mean, so to dig in on that a little bit. And I know you don't know this girl but what do you think she felt like? What do you think she thinks when she's in that situation? She's at this transfer, this is going on? What is she thinking?

Linda VanValkenburg: 10:33

She's thinking how much she wishes that her mother hadn't brought it up with him, and how much she wishes that it would just kind of quit already. She'd probably like for the ground open and disappear into the crack, you know. And also, it's informing her of future tense, like I said, of what she can and cannot bring up with her father, or she knows what the answer will be. So certain things become taboo to talk to him about.

Ron Gore: 11:04

And short. So this is a haircut, on air quotes. But it really is, this is me being vulnerable, about how I want to be able to view myself and an aspiration for myself. And so whatever that is, is something that I'm not going to feel as safe doing, because you're not a safe person for me to communicate with. And also, she's got to mistrust mom a little bit more and incremental, less, bit less, because mom put her in the situation,

Linda VanValkenburg: 11:37

right? And even if you talk about it beforehand, and say, Well, I may bring it up with your dad, it's still I know, because just a few times, I've experienced that as a reconciliation therapist, where the child definitely knows that we're making an agenda of things to discuss with the parent. They know that I'll be helping them to initiate the conversation. But they still are not happy with me after father has had a less than appropriate way of dealing with that

Ron Gore: 12:12

That's really interesting. and why, what do information. they say? How do you know they're upset?

Linda VanValkenburg: 12:19

Because I give them the space. That's safe to say. Like, usually I can tell on their face, so I'll ask about it. But I had one recently that just said, Linda, I'm mad at you that you brought that up. And on my side, I'm thinking that was the least of all the issues that we needed to talk to him about. And so I started with what I thought was the safest and easiest thing.

Ron Gore: 12:44

And this is a pre arranged agenda that you had agreed on before the session even started?

Linda VanValkenburg: 12:50

totally. And I reminded her that day, when I talked to her first before we brought her father in, and that that would be the one that I would start with, because it seemed to be the least of all her issues that she wants to talk to him about.

Ron Gore: 13:08

So I don't know, I'm playing not even armchair because my chair currently has no arms. But to me, that sounds like she is so devastated by his reaction, that she needs to find someone to be mad at.

Linda VanValkenburg: 13:23

Yes. And she wanted to, I was happy to absorb that. But she also wanted she told me that that she was the the person in all her family, her extended family that she knew on her mother's side that of all those people she was the most wanting to please people, and the most wanting nobody else to be upset by anything. And so she perceived that this person that she does not know very well. Her father that's reentering her life is very displeased with what we brought up. so will he ever be able to get past that and to love her and want to have her in his life?

Ron Gore: 14:08

Well, there's a lot, a lot built into that.

Linda VanValkenburg: 14:10

Oh, and it but it is, I mean, that's kind of an extreme example, but this father here doesn't know what all he's created there with that child

Ron Gore: 14:18

I was about to say the exact same thing. It seems like that other one that you mentioned, was such a different level of story. But this is the kind of thing that a kid remembers And he seems to not even be open, he doesn't seem to even have any idea that this will have an effect on her that is gonna boomarang to him. And if he wants more control, this is a guaranteed way to get less control, Because he's not establishing any genuine affection or he's not establishing any loyalty, right from her for his perspective. His best bet let's, let's say that he's right. And that it is a horrible idea to get this haircut. If he if he chose to lovingly express that concern but support her and say hey, you know, go for it. I have this concern. But if you want to do that, I'm all about it. Let's have fun with it. And I'm sure it'll be great. And then later on, she realizes, Oh, he was right. But he let me do it and he's here for me and he's not making fun of me... I mean, It would have been totally on its head.

Linda VanValkenburg: 15:26

Yep. And especially for girls, but it sounds like you was your feathered hairstyle. Back in the day. My you know, I know guys stand in front of the mirror sometimes too at that stage and it's it's a creative expression for women, you know, for girls. And then we do tend to I mean, think how many how many hairstyles for women have been modeled after a particular actor or actress? You know, the Rachel the Hamill. You know, I mean, there, there have been some iconic hairstyles through the years that every one of us girls, you know, Farrah Fawcett's feathered look, you know, we all know

Ron Gore: 16:07

That's what I was going after!

Linda VanValkenburg: 16:08

Yeah, exactly. No, it did go for girls and guys back then And it, you know, I mean, everybody wanted to try it, whether we had the hair for it or not, you know, so it's just really I know, my hairdresser for many years has been like, sorry, that's not your hair, no, Sorry, your hair won't do that

Ron Gore: 16:27

That's a good hair stylist!

Linda VanValkenburg: 16:28

Ah, exactly. And yeah, because I've repeatedly brought her pictures of people through the years and she's like, it's not going to look quite like that

Ron Gore: 16:39

Yeah, I think starting in my 20s my hair barber just sort of willed me towards pictures of like Telly Savalas. Yul Brenner...

Linda VanValkenburg: 16:50

Think we're dating ourselves with all these references?

Ron Gore: 16:52

True? I don't know. I don't know who else to do now. But well, so I feel my heart goes out to this little girl. I'm frustrated with Mom, mom should know better than to bring this up in front of her at a transfer. The question of well, let's get to the other question that she posed in this-- is a haircut for a child a family decision. And there's so much in that. So what do you think? And of course, the different ages? And what do we mean by family?

Linda VanValkenburg: 17:27

Well, as I've always understood it, and you're the legal person here, so you can you can correct me on this. But as I've understood it, in having been a PC and a few cases, through the years, if they have joint custody, that is one of the areas where they do both get a decision making part in it... kind of appearance in general, you know, like, I've had the same kind of questions come up with whether it appears a kid's ears or not, or, you know, they're just some basic kinds of things as they get a little bit older, whether they can get a tattoo before 18, and that kind of thing. And so, it's, some things are more permanent than others, of course, but I do see that being a deal. And, you know, we could flip this on the mom and say, How would you be if Dad took her to get a drastic haircut? And didn't bother to ask you that? That would probably not be appreciated, either.

Ron Gore: 18:26

I'm sure you're right. I mean, from my perspective, if I were to weigh in on this and give some sort of recommendation, I would be asking myself, what is the potential risk of harm? And what's the potential benefit, the potential risk of harm for a child who's otherwise you know, doing okay, is minimal. Now, if this were a child who was having a lot of trouble in school, and who was, you know, unusually precarious, in terms of their mental health, so we're showing up to school with a failed attempt at a cool haircut could really be devastating, then I would say there's an increased risk of harm. But if assuming that that's not the case, then the risk of harm is low. And the greater risk of harm comes from having this fight about the haircut, as opposed to anything that haircut could have done.

Linda VanValkenburg: 19:22

And that comes out in the update here, which I think is kind of fun when you get one of those. You know, she wound up not getting the pixie cut, and for two reasons, and the first one is like, you know, I think would be a normal thing that a kid would probably decide, but it would be different. If it was just the child's decision. She's I think she got nervous about the change. Which, you know, that's that's a good thing. If the child decides on her own, it might not have been the best idea. But she was also nervous about her dad's reaction. So, you know, she wound up getting a short bob, which is kind of something else those girls will sometimes do is okay, well, and hairstylists are usually pretty good about that, too. How about if we just take it up this much, you know, and see what you think about it?

Ron Gore: 20:17

Well, the bob is the gateway drug to the pixie So it's just a slippery slope....the slippery slope on this on the way down? Yeah, but I think you know, and it's also interesting, if a parent forced a child to get a pixie haircut at that age, I think that could be, in some ways considered a type of abuse, depending on what level of impact would have on the child says the child decided they wanted to get the haircut, arguing about it in front of the child, and making statements like the dad did here is, I believe, abusive type of language.

Linda VanValkenburg: 20:51

And she says she's the custodial parent. So she may think she has the right to determine those kinds of things. I know a lot of parents too see things like hair and, and clothing and ear piercing and dealing with maturity with girls when they are, you know, in puberty, that that all that is mom's territory, and should not be, you know, entered by father at all, he doesn't even need to have an opinion about any of it, you know, but I don't I don't know. It's that has frequently come up as a thing, especially if father is remarried and or has a girlfriend and that person steps in to the mom role on any of those issues.

Ron Gore: 21:42

Oh my goodness! Talk about a minefield!

Linda VanValkenburg: 21:44

Yes. Yes. And so I but I've seen it frequently happen, you know that the girlfriend or the step mom is one that takes the child for the haircut or whatever, and it's, wow, it's not a good thing.

Ron Gore: 21:59

Well, unlike with so many co parenting issues, it all comes down to Sunsoo. Out of idea. Pick your battle, and the battlefield and the time, and this was not the battle, not the right Battlefield, not the right time. So Well, I hope she looks great in her haircut. And I'm sure that short bob will be will be wonderful.